Infantry Unit Tactics, Tasks, Weapons, and Organization

[Norfolk]

You are familiar with the Norinco QLB06 I assume?
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/crewserved/qlb06.asp
An nice alternative to the MGL-140. Interesting stuff out of China. Wonder at what level they integrate that thing.

Oh yes, Distiller, I am. I prefer the Type 87 because of its ability to be used in the SF Role. The QLB06 can only be used in the Light Role. The PLA uses the Type 87 at Company Level I think. The Type 88 5.8 mm LMG was found to be inadequate for Company-level work and pushed down to Platoon.

[Norfolk]

For the Battalion-level, I propose something more or less along the following lines:

A Weapons Company consisting of a Heavy Machine Gun Platoon, with 8 or 9 40 mm GMGs; a Mortar Platoon with 8-9 81 mm Medium (Foot Infantry) or 120 mm Heavy Mortars (Armoured Infantry); an Anti-Tank Platoon with 16-18 Medium (Foot Infantry) or Heavy (Armoured Infantry) ATGM Launchers; a Pioneer Platoon of 3-4 Sections for Field Engineer Battlefield Tasks; and a Reconnaissance Platoon with 6-8 Recce Teams, and 3-4 Sniper Teams.

Also, in Armoured/Mechanized Infantry Battalions, a Carrier Company of 4 or 5 Carrier Platoons (4-5 APC/MICV/IFV each). This would centralise training and maintenance; each Carrier Platoon may be attached to a given Company on a habitual basis to encourage familiarity and tactical cooperation.

I am concerned however, that wherever possible, even Battalion-level Heavy Weapons should be capable of being man-packed (including in Armoured/Mechanized Infantry Battalions). As such, I view the 120 mm Mortar and the TOW (and like Heavy ATGMs) as something that I would prefer to see organized in their own Companies, and located at Regiment/Brigade level; not to mention that I suspect that they are more effectively used that way most of the time anyway. I would much prefer not to have 120 mm Mortars and TOW-type ATGMs organic to the Infantry Battalion, but rather attached to them from Regimental/Brigade-level.

[Rifleman]

Artillery and mortar types soundoff: would there be any advantage (or problems) in having a mixed battery of 105 howitzers and 120 mortars? Say a battery of four 105 tubes and four 120 tubes?

Would two types of ammo in the battery be a logistical problem? We have more than one type of small arms ammo in a company now and it doesn't seem to hinder operations.

I was just thinking (dangerous, I know): why to we need a heavy mortar platoon at battalion level at all when battalions have an artillery battery attached? It seems the 120s might fit better there.

[Norfolk]

Artillery and mortar types soundoff: would there be any advantage (or problems) in having a mixed battery of 105 howitzers and 120 mortars? Say a battery of four 105 tubes and four 120 tubes?

Would two types of ammo in the battery be a logistical problem? We have more than one type of small arms ammo in a company now and it doesn't seem to hinder operations.

I was just thinking (dangerous, I know): why to we need a heavy mortar platoon at battalion level at all when battalions have an artillery battery attached? It seems the 120s might fit better there.

Ken would be the perfect man to tell us about this; he bin' there, he dun it, and he'd probably have written the book about, but writing may not have been invented yet back then...

It seems kind of doubtful to me Rifleman. I'm no Gunner (my paternal grandfather was though), but it strikes me as just needlessly complicated for an Arty Battery. You'd need two sets of Plotting Tables, maybe even an extra radio set in order to get around the radio logjam for both the guns and the tubes; and maintainence and supply would be complicated. Calibration could be fun too. Survey shouldn't be a problem though, even if GPS weren't available to effectively avoid that "little" detail.

I think the Army tried something somewhat similar (but in separate Batteries, not Platoons/Troops in each Battery) with the Pentomic Division. Didn't work out real well.

[Ken White]

Ken would be the perfect man to tell us about this; he bin' there, he dun it, and he'd probably have written the book about, but writing may not have been invented yet back then...

Was too. Wore out many a chisel on the stone tablets...

I think the Army tried something somewhat similar (but in separate Batteries, not Platoons/Troops in each Battery) with the Pentomic Division. Didn't work out real well.

Yep, each Battle Group, 4 or 5 BIG rifle Companies, a Hq Co and a Mortar Battery, manned by Artllery people. Said Artillerists HATED it and thought mortars beneath them. It worked okay tactically and they still had the DS 105 Bns in the DivArty. Biggest problem was that the human factors, specifically, full Colonels commanding only 12-1,500 troops instead of a 3K man Regiment or Brigade (that was beneath them...), didn't work out.

I can see no practical value to mixing the 120 / 105. The logistic and FDC problems UBoat509 cited are real and significant. Plus, IMO, the Bn having it's own indirect fire capability with a greater bursting radius if less range than the 105 is a good thing. The Army now trains 11Cs on all three mortars instead of a specific tube and TOEs are being modified so that both 60s and 81s are available at Company level; the tube carried being mission selected. The 120s are all being provided purpose designed trailers to haul 'em so they can go into and out of action more quickly.

[Rifleman]

The Army now trains 11Cs on all three mortars instead of a specific tube and TOEs are being modified so that both 60s and 81s are available at Company level; the tube carried being mission selected.

Thanks for that. It's encouraging to know the Army is taking that step. I've wondered why mortar sections haven't been using an "arms room concept."

Now, please tell me they went back to three tubes per line company!

[Uboat509]

Artillery and mortar types soundoff: would there be any advantage (or problems) in having a mixed battery of 105 howitzers and 120 mortars? Say a battery of four 105 tubes and four 120 tubes?

Would two types of ammo in the battery be a logistical problem? We have more than one type of small arms ammo in a company now and it doesn't seem to hinder operations.

I was just thinking (dangerous, I know): why to we need a heavy mortar platoon at battalion level at all when battalions have an artillery battery attached? It seems the 120s might fit better there.

The logistic problems of dealing with the different munitions would be a huge pain plus there is huge difference in the FDCs. Most of the infantry battalions I have seen have habitual relationships with external units that support them, ie. artillery, engineers, ADA etc. That frees up the battalion from logistical, administrative and maintenance support of these units but allows them to work together. Furthermore, this allows more flexibility to the brigade commander. If he needs to push more assets to one battalion he can do so without having to pull it out of the other battalions.

SFC W

[jcustis]

I am concerned however, that wherever possible, even Battalion-level Heavy Weapons should be capable of being man-packed (including in Armoured/Mechanized Infantry Battalions). As such, I view the 120 mm Mortar and the TOW (and like Heavy ATGMs) as something that I would prefer to see organized in their own Companies, and located at Regiment/Brigade level; not to mention that I suspect that they are more effectively used that way most of the time anyway. I would much prefer not to have 120 mm Mortars and TOW-type ATGMs organic to the Infantry Battalion, but rather attached to them from Regimental/Brigade-level.

Speaking of better man-portability, I had a conversation with a retired SgtMaj who is working on the acquisition team to field new 81mm and 60mm tubes, made out of a new composite that not only boasts a greater round count life, but also substantial savings in weight.

In the Marine Corps, we used to have TOWs at the Regimental level, as well as a recce platoon. Those went the way of the dodo starting about 10 years ago, though I don't know the reasoning behind the T/O shift.

In terms of 120mm mortars, they are being tested/fielded at the arty battalion level. I have a buddy who used to be in a battalion thathad received 120s as part of the OT&E phase, and I believe they are going to be a permanent fixture.

Much of the discussion about platoon/coy/battalion heavier weapons cannot be separated from the discussion about the means of coveyance. Among USMC infantry companies, each of the three rifle companies within a battalion must retain the capability to move by small boat, amphibious assault vehicle, helicopter, truckin' it, or on foot. Although the MEUs do have a degree of specialization involved (i.e. one company focuses on small boats, helos, etc.) they all need to retain a baseline of expertise to move via any of the other means. Since basic foot movement remains a core task, we'll probably always see weapon weights as a limiting factor.

If we do actually shift to a true distributed operations framework, that will throw everything I've said aside, but I don't see the Corps completely embracing DO the way the proposals make it out to be.

[Norfolk]

As per Rex' Request for Proposal, here is the first:

Light Infantry Battalion – Table of Organization and Equipment

Principle Roles:

Forced Entry in Operational-Level Amphibious/Airborne Seize-and-Hold/Interdiction/Raid Operations; Operations in Specific Extreme Environments (Arctic, Mountain, Desert, Deep Jungle, Swamplands); Rapid-Reaction Intervention Operations (including as vanguard of Humanitarian Crisis Relief/Counter-Genocide/SSO Operations for Brief Durations (1-2 Weeks at most). Carries 3-4 Days worth of Supplies within Battalion.

Suitable for Most European and English-Speaking Armies; Commando-trained (ex. Royal Marines, Belgian Para-Commando Brigade, US Army Rangers).

Headquarters Company –

•Command Section (Battalion CO, Battalion 2i/c, Battalion Staff)
•Command Post (Company CDR, Company 2i/c, Regimental SGTMJR, 4 Clerks, 4 Runners/Drivers)
•Intelligence Section
•Police Section
•Signals Platoon (including Dispatch Riders on Motorcycles – Yeehaaww!)
•Supply Platoon (Stores, Transport, and POL Sections)
•Maintenance Platoon (including Recovery Section and Mobile Repair Team Section)
•Medical Platoon (including Aid Station)
•Mess Platoon (One Field Kitchen per Company)

Infantry Company – (X3)

•Company HQ (Company CDR, Company 2i/c, Company SGTMJR/1st Sgt, 4 Signalers, 2 Clerks, 2 Runners/Drivers)
oCommand Section
oCommand Post
oCompany Quartermaster

•Rifle Platoon (X3)
oPlatoon HQ (Platoon CDR, Platoon 2i/c, 2 Runners/Drivers, 4 Designated Marksmen)
Rifle Section (X4) – 11 men
•Weapons Squad (Section CDR/Grenadier, LMG Gunner, 2 Riflemen)
•Rifle Squad (Section 2i/c, 6 Riflemen – 1 w/ RPG-7V2)

•Weapons Platoon
Platoon HQ (Platoon CDR, Platoon 2i/c, 2 Signalers, 2 Runners/Drivers)
Machine Gun Section (Section CDR, Section 2i/c, Gun Controller, 2 Signalers)
•4 Machine Gun Squads (each one 7.62mm MAG-58 and 4 men)
Mortar Section (Section CDR, Section 2i/c, Mortar Fire Controller , 2 Signalers)
•4 Mortar Squads (each one 60 mm M224 and 4 men)
Anti-Tank Section (Section CDR, Section 2i/c, 2 Signalers)
•4 Anti-Tank Squads (each one MBT-LAW and 4 men)

Weapons Company –

•Company HQ (Company CDR, Company 2i/c, Company SGTMJR/1st Sgt, 4 Signalers, 2 Clerks, 2 Runners/Drivers)
•Command Section
•Command Post
•Signals Section
•Company Quartermaster

•Machine Gun Platoon
•Platoon HQ (Platoon CDR, Platoon 2i/c, 2 Signalers, 2 Runners/Drivers)
•4 Machine Gun Sections (Section CDR, Section 2i/c, 2 Gun Controllers, 2 Signalers)
2 Machine Gun Squads (each one 40mm GMG and 5 men)

Mortar Platoon
•Platoon HQ (Platoon CDR, Platoon 2i/c, 2 Signalers, 2 Runners/Drivers)
•4 Mortar Sections (Section CDR, Section 2i/c, 2 Mortar Fire Controllers, 2 Signalers)
•2 Mortar Squads (each one 81 mm Mortar, and 6 men)

•Anti-Tank Platoon
•Platoon HQ (Platoon CDR, Platoon 2i/c, 2 Signalers, 2 Runners/Drivers)
•4 Anti-Tank Sections (Section CDR, Section 2i/c, 2 Signalers)
•2 Anti-Tank Squads (each one ATGM launcher, 5 men)

•Pioneer Platoon
•Platoon HQ (Platoon CDR, Platoon 2i/c, 2 Signalers, 2 Runners/Drivers)
•4 Pioneer Sections (each 11 men, as per Rifle Section)

•Reconnaissance Platoon
•Platoon HQ (Platoon CDR, Platoon 2i/c, 2 Signalers, 2 Runners/Drivers)
•4 Reconnaissance Sections (2 Reconnaissance Squads each of 4 Patrolmen/Surveillance System Operators, one light vehicle per Squad)
•Sniper Section (Section CDR, Section 2i/c, Signaler, 4 2-man Sniper Teams)
-Pathfinder Section (Section CDR, Section 2i/c, 4 4-man Pathfinder Squads - Scouting and Holding Beachheads, Watercourses, DZ's/LZ's, Mountain Paths, etc.)

Note: Typical Attachments may include Light Tank Squadron/Company, 105mm Light Gun Artillery Battery, Field Engineer Troop/Platoon, Anti-Aircraft Troop/Platoon, etc.

[William F. Owen]

As per Rex' Request for Proposal, here is the first:

Light Infantry Battalion – Table of Organization and Equipment

OK.
@ Is this the deployed OOB or the Garrison OOB?
@ Platoons are 49 men?
@ Rifle Companies are over 200 men? So 25 approx vehicles per Company? The Unit must be close to 200-250 vehicles?

Why the 1980's equipment? Sabre is garbage, as is Land Rover WMIK. This exactly like a very inflated version of the Battalion I grew up in!

[Ratzel]

I do believe there is need to keep the Bradly with 25MM Cannon to support armour and to do the things that Mech Infantry do. However, I also see a need for an APC that can deliver a whole dismount squad which can also take a lot of abuse.

The Stryker or 113 can deliver a squad, but is limited in survivability. That's why I'd like to see an APC that can take MBT type abuse. Just imagine an Abrams, thats a little bit thinner, and without a turret. This APC would deliver Infantry in very dangerous places. It should have a low profile, and a seating arrangement similar to a BMP. The facing out seating arrangement will allow for more visibility in those very dangerous places. This seating, will also need to be more comfortable. Its not uncommon to be in an APC for 10-15 hours at a time.

The longest I sat in one without getting out was 18 hours. Despite cries from the crew that "all we do is sleep", there is no real sleeping in a Bradly. This new APC will allow soldiers to be rest when possible. Sometimes Mechanized warfare does not allow for soldiers to get out and take a two hour nap under a poncho liner. Instead, hour after hour is spent in the vehicle.

This APC would require a .50 cal or 40MM remote controlled system on top. There would also be visual sensors on top for the squad leaders or PL to view the battlefield with. This vehicle should have some capability to blow holes through walls that allows for the infantry squad to literally step out of the APC into the building.

The company would be configured like a Stryker unit. However, instead of a MGS platoon, it would be supported by a PL of tanks or PL of Brads. Maybe even 2 tanks and 2 Brads?

I realize that the Abrams has a turbo engine, so the challenge lies in building an engine that can carry the kind of armour that a MBT offers. The engine would have to be in the front-due to the infantry-so this may be difficult?

[William F. Owen]

. That's why I'd like to see an APC that can take MBT type abuse. Just imagine an Abrams, thats a little bit thinner, and without a turret. This APC would deliver Infantry in very dangerous places.

The engine would have to be in the front-due to the infantry-so this may be difficult?

You may want to look at:
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...era/Namera.htm

It is worth noting that the IDF has always rejected the idea of an MICV, and is set to continue to do so. They make a firm distinction between Infantry and Armour. As I understand it, like Acharitz, Namer, or Namera, - or the Namereem! - will be crewed by Armoured Corps, not infantry

[Rex Brynen]

For the Battalion-level, I propose something more or less along the following lines:

Of course its easy for me to suggest--given that it just takes me a ten second post to throw out the challenge--but it would be very useful (and fun) to pull together all of the discussions on platoon/fireteam organization, platoon weapons, and now battalion weapons into a proposed battalion TO&E (hint, hint, Norfolk).

A couple of modest suggestions for anyone who tries it:

1) Specify not only whether its a light/foot or heavy/mech battalion, but also whose battalion it is. If it is for a non-US force (and I'm including here Canada, Australia, parts of Europe) it may not need to be configured to handle high intensity conflict, but rather a spectrum that runs from fairly permissive (post-Dayton Bosnia) PKOs to Somalia-type humanitarian intervention to Afghanistan-type stabilization missions.

2) Specify the IFV (MICV, APC, whatever). It clearly makes some difference if you're fielding 4 mounted ATGM tubes or zero at platoon level, etc.

3) OK, this is the evil political scientist in me. The quipment has to exist now. Try to make some reasonable assumptions about procurement ...otherwise you'll all want Type III phasers.

[Norfolk]

Of course its easy for me to suggest--given that it just takes me a ten second post to throw out the challenge--but it would be very useful (and fun) to pull together all of the discussions on platoon/fireteam organization, platoon weapons, and now battalion weapons into a proposed battalion TO&E (hint, hint, Norfolk).

A couple of modest suggestions for anyone who tries it:

1) Specify not only whether its a light/foot or heavy/mech battalion, but also whose battalion it is. If it is for a non-US force (and I'm including here Canada, Australia, parts of Europe) it may not need to be configured to handle high intensity conflict, but rather a spectrum that runs from fairly permissive (post-Dayton Bosnia) PKOs to Somalia-type humanitarian intervention to Afghanistan-type stabilization missions.

2) Specify the IFV (MICV, APC, whatever). It clearly makes some difference if you're fielding 4 mounted ATGM tubes or zero at platoon level, etc.

3) OK, this is the evil political scientist in me. The quipment has to exist now. Try to make some reasonable assumptions about procurement ...otherwise you'll all want Type III phasers.

Sah! [Norfolk utters in his best Parade-Square Drill Voice]

I will get right on it, Sah!

PS: Does it hurt when you get zapped by a Type III Phaser, or is it over real quick?

[Rex Brynen]

Sah! [Norfolk utters in his best Parade-Square Drill Voice]

I will get right on it, Sah!

Sir? My parents were married, dammit