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Thread: The Creation of Mechanized SOC Units

  1. #101
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Heh. No prob and we agree on your last thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
    Sorry about that, I know you weren't but that was the original concept of the thread and I was adressing that. I do agree that having an elite formation organic to the divison would be a good thing, although apparently I did not articlulate that very well. I just don't think you could sell Big Army on the idea.
    I do tend to wander off thread now and then -- I olde...

    The prob, of course is in the one world you used. Elite. I didn't and I don't think Cav Guy meant for that Cav sqn to be that, elite, I mean -- just that it be well trained and equipped, no more. Almost all our current equipment is designed to be multipurpose, thus the designs are compromised significantly to try to make everybody happy.

    However, seen as 'elite' it would be an for whatever reason and a lot of people just flat hate anyone or anything that even smells a little different. Dumb.

    Can't see it myself; lot of folks smarter than I am, a lot with more money, better character -- but while I applaud their gains on me, I don't think they're one bit more elite than I happen to be. Jealousy is stupid.

  2. #102
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    Viewed in a certain light, it is almost comical (and at the risk of not putting enough thought into it):

    The US Army uses the word "deployability", in roughly the same way a panic-stricken student says that he/she needs to "study" the night before a big exam. Plenty of talk, and disjointed, but all too brief, spurts of action.

    The C-17 is outstanding, and the Stryker (and Stryker brigade design) is decent, good even - heck, excellent considering the alternative was previously foot-mobile infantry with some Up-armored Humvees.

    So I'm a little surprised that we don't have more airlift, or a replacement for the Herc (SFC W is right, the C-130 can land in an amazingly short distance, on an aircraft carrier even, but the interior dimensions are a bit cramped for serious vehicles). I sat next to a C-17 maintenance officer (either commissioned or NCO - I didn't pry) on a flight one time - he talked about how rapidly those airframes are being worn out - and we really don't have that many.

    Most of all, our rapid deployment forces (light infantry and SOF) too often seem to eschew armor to the point of a fetish. Which isn't helped by a few military "experts" both in and out of uniform, who have a seemingly endless stream of excuses for why armor isn't useful or applicable... and who in at least one case managed to be shocked (shocked!) that having a few tanks around in an urban fight, or even in A-stan (a la a company of Canadian Leopards) turns out to be a good idea.

    And yet, (after the Sheridan) there was never a US counterpart to the BMD or Wiesel, the more compact French armored cars, or even the Scorpion /Scimitar. Seriously?

    Were we serious, we would have come up with something (and actually deployed it). No good reason not to give early-entry commanders another tool in the bag of tricks.
    That said, I think that the idea of a QRF company of tanks and Brads isn't as bad a fit as it might first appear.
    The M1, with a few improvements (more fuel efficient engine, for example - not too hard to do) could make it less difficult to support - and thus more useful in an austere environment. Usually, we either seem to have the time, or make the time, to get some heavy armor into theater anyway. ...and an M1 can give you a very nice... edge.

    We could modify just a battalion, for example. That might be one good mission set for an elite armor unit. Modify vehicles to use less fuel, perhaps add more mechanics and much, much more PLL...
    If you can only send one company, one battalion, or one brigade/regiment of armor, then it may as well be a great one.

    Besides, from what I've heard, a fair number of tankers have been in Humvees, and not their tanks, for a long, long time. It wouldn't hurt to have armored units that were not subjected to that abuse, and thus ready to go for anything unforeseen. (I always find it suspect, that for a long time it was said that "we always are preparing for the last war", and I haven't heard it in a while; now I hear that insurgencies are the only way wars will ever be fought in the future. Ever. Hmmm... noticeably we still needed to kick down the door in '03...)

    A second possibility could be armored units specially trained and equipped to support infantry units in urban combat - since that is also (theoretically) the wave of the future. I'm not entirely sure what that should look like, although the Russians have some ideas about it, and it seems to include some vehicles with multiple auto-cannons and heavy armor.

    We also seem to lead with our Cav organizations (both Gulf Wars) and they ended up doing a good bit of fighting. Heh, historically, armored scouts always end up fighting, no matter how often some say they shouldn't.
    While the 3rd ACR still has that punch (41/41 Tanks/Brads per squadron, with all 3 Armored Cav Squadrons, the Heavy ACR has twice as many of each vehicle as a Heavy BCT, and it has an Air Cav Squadron, and the other support...), the DivCav Squadrons that were so excellent, have now been dismantled, and the HBCT Cav Squadron certainly couldn't mix it up the way the DivCav could (in spite of the fact that the Heavy BCT's desperately need more combat power). Quite ironic that we nearly dismantled all of the Cav organizations, in the name of "modularity".

    This could be a third possible mission set for "special" armor units - the Armored Cav mission (the traditional guard, cover, screen, along with raids), only this time they get some extra resources and other ups. While I was in the 3rd ACR, I saw us get more ammo and training time than my friends in regular units (admittedly not a very scientific study), but I don't think that was institutionalized (I recall that the official ammo allocations were the same as a regular mech or armor battalion, adjusting for the number of vehicles) - so I am just hopelessly biased...

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
    I just don't think you could sell Big Army on the idea.

    SFC W
    Sorry to be a pain, SFC W, but when was the last time that Big Army was sold on ANYTHING?

    Big Army has kinda wanted the Stryker /LAV IIIs since 1982, when they were going to maybe equip some parts of the RDF (back when the USMC was getting them). So getting them only took what, two decades? The MRAPs were basically forced on the Army. The need to go to a more integrated, self-contained, brigade-centric organization, the BCT re-org, had been showing in $1 matinees in the theater of the obvious for a long time.

    Which is my way of saying that I agree - I'm quite certain that Big Army won't be sold on the idea.

  4. #104
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Yep...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabre View Post
    The US Army uses the word "deployability", in roughly the same way a panic-stricken student says that he/she needs to "study" the night before a big exam. Plenty of talk, and disjointed, but all too brief, spurts of action
    Agreed. However, on this, I'm not so sure:
    Most of all, our rapid deployment forces (light infantry and SOF) too often seem to eschew armor to the point of a fetish...
    Agree on SOF but the Airplane Division -- there's only one and I'm not familiar enough with the 10th and 101st to comment on their attitude -- would love to have an air droppable something. The M8 (which was not a very good vehicle but would have been better than nothing) got sacrificed by the Infantry in order to get Armor to agree to the Bradley (bad trade IMO but they didn't ask me) and Infantry to in turn agree to the M1 so Armor could have the HEMTT (which the AC of USAIS did not want for strange reasons). Equipment buys are so simple...

    Anyway, what the light guys are not enamored of is Mech Infantry -- it's an attitude thing; Tanks are acceptable and Cav is cool...
    And yet, (after the Sheridan) there was never a US counterpart to the BMD or Wiesel, the more compact French armored cars, or even the Scorpion /Scimitar. Seriously?
    True and a major flaw on our part; as you said,"Were we serious, we would have come up with something (and actually deployed it)."
    The M1, with a few improvements (more fuel efficient engine, for example - not too hard to do) could make it less difficult to support - and thus more useful in an austere environment. Usually, we either seem to have the time, or make the time, to get some heavy armor into theater anyway. ...and an M1 can give you a very nice... edge.
    True. whatever happened to the the LV 100-5? Though I'd opt for an MTU 890 series if it were my call ...
    We also seem to lead with our Cav organizations (both Gulf Wars) and they ended up doing a good bit of fighting. Heh, historically, armored scouts always end up fighting, no matter how often some say they shouldn't.
    Training design flaw, IMO. In NW Europe at the end of WW II, the Recon Sqns and Troops which had been snooping all across Western Europe and doing it well suddenly hit the north German plain and a crumbling German Army -- that led to pressure for speed so they learned to just charge ahead and get into fights. That 'lesson' stuck and as an old Cav Colonel said not long ago, "we don't have the patience to do stealthy recon; so we just go out looking for trouble" lot of truth in that and if you do that, you have to have Armor -- so our Recon unit design defaults to NW Europe. Still. Wrongly. Very wrongly. We haven't done any real recon work there for almost 20 years...

    The issue is not that the Scouts don't have the patience to snoop, that can be trained -- the problem is that the Commanders in the rear do not want to give the Scouts time to do that. That's where the impatience is a problem.
    ...the DivCav Squadrons that were so excellent, have now been dismantled, and the HBCT Cav Squadron certainly couldn't mix it up the way the DivCav could (in spite of the fact that the Heavy BCT's desperately need more combat power). Quite ironic that we nearly dismantled all of the Cav organizations, in the name of "modularity".
    Very true and very bad mistakes. I'm not a proponent of Scouts mixing it up but acknowledge they may have to and for over 50 years, I've been waiting for a good US Army Scout vehicle. I've seen five attempts but no vehicle...

  5. #105
    Council Member ODB's Avatar
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    Default Was looking

    Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
    I'm not so sure. The reason there was no armor there was that the NCA had ordered all armor out. I'd be willing to bet that that would have included SOF armor had there been such a thing at the time.

    SFC W
    Somalia as a prime example in recent history, that such a force would have been perfect for.

    Felt the same way as you, SOF does not need an armor unit, but such capabilities outside of SOF makes sense.
    ODB

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    Why did you not clear your corner?

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  6. #106
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    The LV100-5 was running in test form back in 2002, but it fell into the Abrams-Crusader common engine program and when the Crusader was cut it was delayed. Apparently the Army still plans on buying it, but they certainly haven't set a timeline, and I found one news article which described a $327M upgrade program for the AGT 1500 which hasn't been produced since 1992.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratzel View Post
    What makes these units "Special Operations Capable?" Is there a selection process and/or advanced training they go through?

    The MEU(SOC) PTP certifies the MEU, Special Operations Capable, in a 6 mth certification program before each deployment.

    Zodiac-borne Company sized Clandestine Raid fr/the sea. A Limited Scale Amphibious Raid designed to Clandestinely Destroy enemy Encampments or Fortifications, or Capture key personnel on foreign soil w/no outside support.

    Helo-borne Deep Raid. A Comp sized Raid designed to do the same as the Clandestine Amph Raid out to 400mi fr/the sea on foreign soil w/no outside support.

    Deep TRAP. One was performed by the 15th MEU(SOC) to pick up a Delta tm & their downed Black Hawk in the opening days of A'stan in Oct '01.

    Non-Combatant Evac Ops on hostile foreign soil
    Prisoner Snatch
    GOPLAT/VBSS
    Special Reconnaissance & Urban Ops
    (National Level Asset) Signal Intel Exploitation (RRT)
    Advanced Surveillance Target Acquistion (STA)
    HumInt Exploitation (HET)

    These among others assigned to the MEU are labeled by the DOD as Special Operations.

    The MEU(SOC), although capable of conducting these mission is not, purposefully by design, a SOF but is labeled by the DOD as a General Purpose Force (GPF) capable of conducting select Special Operations, hence Special Operations Capable.

  8. #108
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    Thanks for the update COMAR.

    When I last got my feet wet the Corps was using BLT's as its hammer in the Pacific and the Med. It was pre-LPH Carrier taskforce in the Amphip. Navy. I did a Battalion helo launch from the Hornet in Nov. 1960 near Vietnam, but we never went in-country. A classic show of force, perhaps? The SVN paratroop coup faded away during our training off shore.

    Zodiac's? Back inthe Old Corps!

    And our rubber boat contingent paddled ashore with 8 strokers and a SL/Coswain. A Recon Bn. 9 man squad.

    Swift, Silent, Deadly, y'all! I taught the small boat course when I was in the 2nd Recon Bn. long, long ago, etc.

    I'm almost an historical figure.

  9. #109
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default You ARE a historical figure...

    I, OTOH am merely hysterical...

  10. #110
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    Default Imho

    Ken, you might even be historic as well.

    If the first three numbers of your original USMC serial number are below 160, you have every right to be hysterical.
    Last edited by RJ; 02-26-2009 at 05:02 AM.

  11. #111
    Council Member Ron Humphrey's Avatar
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    Default course not

    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Ken, you might even be historic as well.

    If the first three numbers of your original USMC serial number are below 160, you have every right to be hysterical.
    They weren't even half way through the alphabet yet when he started, let alone into numbers

    As to his hysteria hang around here enough and we'll get you too
    Any man can destroy that which is around him, The rare man is he who can find beauty even in the darkest hours

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  12. #112
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    An SWC recurring issue.

    These threads always "jump the shark" when it gets down to making fun of Ken for being old ....
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
    Who is Cavguy?

  13. #113
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Hey, long as they pick on me, they're leaving someone else alone.

    I'm not sure what to tell RJ about my Marine serial number starting with a 110, though...

    I'll have to think about that.

  14. #114
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    110 - Wow Ken, when you arrived at boot Camp I suspect your 782 gear consisted of a spear, a cudgel, a boiled leather breast plate and greaves for your shins.

    When I arrived mine included boondockers, leggens, and herringbone twill utilities that still included a grenade pocket in the blouse. The first General Officer I saw up close at PI was Chesty Puller. He was on the Island to testify for a Courtsmartial. But that's another story.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    110 - Wow Ken, when you arrived at boot Camp I suspect your 782 gear consisted of a spear, a cudgel, a boiled leather breast plate and greaves for your shins.
    Now, you know that's stretching it a bit. But I suspect that Ken still has his leather throat guard. And he might be "hysterical" because he slipped in the rigging and hit his head on the mizzen when the Consititution hit a swell. At least he didn't drop his fire-lock. Major Henderson would have been pissed.
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

  16. #116
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Fig Leaf, Winter service, green

    and Lance, fire hardened.

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