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  1. #1
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    Default Military Interactions with Contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan

    I’m hoping the readers and discussion board participants of the Small Wars Journal can assist with some research we’re doing at Human Rights Watch on private contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan. We’re especially looking for an on-the-ground perspective of those who have been in Iraq or Afghanistan, or are currently there, and who have interacted with private contractors. Below is a very short survey (all answers are treated confidentially) and feel free to distribute it to others who may have more information. Thanks so much!

    -Thomas



    URL: http://www.polldaddy.com/s/88AD59AB7F5869C2/

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    Council Member pcmfr's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    I smell a troll.


    Added by SWCAdmin: Nope. Please see post below for more info.
    Last edited by SWCAdmin; 12-28-2007 at 09:25 PM. Reason: Addressing unwarranted knee-jerk reaction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcmfr View Post
    I smell a troll.
    Nope.

    This is a serious fact-gathering effort by an organization that is a legitimately interested and involved party in the greater discussion around the practice and conduct of small wars.

    Feel free to ignore the survey if you wish. But those who choose to respond, please do so with due consideration. It is beneath this professional forum to belittle this effort.

    FYI, in the interest of disclosure, Human Rights Watch conducted us about a paid advertising placement on Small Wars Journal. We encouraged them to participate in this forum for free. They chose to do both. We're OK with that.

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    Council Member pcmfr's Avatar
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    Apologize for my wrongful assumption... Best of luck with your fact gathering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWCAdmin View Post
    Nope.

    This is a serious fact-gathering effort by an organization that is a legitimately interested and involved party in the greater discussion around the practice and conduct of small wars.

    Feel free to ignore the survey if you wish. But those who choose to respond, please do so with due consideration. It is beneath this professional forum to belittle this effort.

    FYI, in the interest of disclosure, Human Rights Watch conducted us about a paid advertising placement on Small Wars Journal. We encouraged them to participate in this forum for free. They chose to do both. We're OK with that.
    While this comment is certainly old news, I find it hard to believe that this is a "serious fact-gathering effort." It sounds like they're searching for specific information to support a belief they already have.

    The opening statement on the survey is as follows:

    "We are very concerned about the ways in which the actions of certain contractors - acting with impunity and outside the chain of command - are undermining the work of the military. Sadly, the Iraqi and Afghan public sees an American acting recklessly, does not distinguish been military and private contractor, and it hurts all of us. We want to ensure that private contractors are held to the same standards that apply to the military – and held to account for irresponsible behavior. First, however, we need to understand the nature and scope of the problem. Current and former members of the armed services could help by filling out this very short questionnaire. All of your answers (including the fact that you answered) will be treated as confidential."

    Sure sounds like leading questions to me.

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Yep. They are just fishing for "contractors gone wild".

    I have a question: Am I a good American for being a Reservist, who not only has deployed in the GWOT but has repeatedly attempted to get redeployed, or am I a subhuman POS eeeeevil contractor for turning to military contracting, once it became obvious that I couldn't find other appropriate employment as long as the GWOT goes on, and I continue to serve in the Reserves.

    I get confused, sometimes, whether I'm a saint, or the devil incarnate.

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    Default There are

    good soldiers and bad soldiers, good contractors and bad contractors, good reservists and bad reservists, and good guardsmen and bad guardsmen. As in all human endeavor, most of these folk are individually pretty good. The issue, as I see it, is not good people v. bad people but rather, what functions should belong exclusively to the government and what can legitimately be contracted out. At the opposite ends of the scale it is pretty obvious. But in the gray area in the middle, reasonable people can disagree. My personal bias is that when in doubt, one should not contract it out. But how quickly can you go from an overuse of contracting to an appropriate level?

    Cheers

    JohnT

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    Council Member mhusband's Avatar
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    The thing I think the survey is missing is that it seems to be focused on US contractors when I think the larger problem is Local National contractors that if investigated would be a much larger problem.

    Thoughts?

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    Council Member sandbag's Avatar
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    Perhaps the issue is rather: "Are contractors utilized appropriately, for non-governmental functions and within the scope, terms and conditions of the contract under which they are employed?". It's an easy answer, rather than implying a vast global conspiracy to deliver destruction, terror and mayhem.

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    I have had nothing but positive interactions with contractors. I believe that I already pointed this out on a similar thread (I forget which) but I given how much commentary (not necessarily at SWC) is biased against contractors, I'm willing to repeat myself.

    I dealt with contractors primarily in the realm of supply and maintenance. I do not know if it is cultural, bureaucratic, or both, but I had nothing but problems with Army personnel when it came to supply and maintenance. They are never satisfied with your paperwork, their standards seemingly change on a daily basis, which means that your paperwork will always be incorrect, and that is assuming that you are actually able to locate them, as they always seem to be a) at breakfast, b) at lunch, c) on "Sergeant's time," or d) closed until 9am. Often times, "until 9am" turns into "10-ish". And if you need something at 4:30, sorry, we close in half an hour. And heaven forbid that you bring more than 10 items for repair (even though you can only make it to the FOB once every week or two). Sorry, Specialist, but the insurgents didn't stop shooting once 10 of our items broke. Next time, we'll let them know about the 10-NMC-items-per-day limit at your air conditioned office.

    Contractors were the most user-friendly folks that I met in Iraq. I remember when the KBR guys first took over 30-level support for our NVDs, weapons, and thermals. We brought ten NMC items - as per the Army's curious limit - and informed the contractor at the desk that we would bring ten more in a week. He asked why we didn't just bring them all today. We informed him of the 10-per-day limit. He looked at us like we were space aliens. Turn around time was immediate for most of the items. Code-out procedures were a cinch. The contractors seemed to always be available - not sure if they actually worked 24/7 or if it just seemed that way. Paperwork not done properly? No problem. The contractor would print out a new sheet and fill it in for you and then give you an example sheet for the next turn-in. Incredibly user-friendly, helpful, fast, efficient. I could go on. More expensive? I don't know. I also don't care.

    Added: Also, in regard to local nationals - my only interaction with them was an occasional foray into a FOB chow hall. My understanding is that they were earning about a dollar per day or something absurd like that. Outrageous to an American, but apparently pretty good wages if you are returning to Bangladesh. We gave a few personal items to some of them just prior to redeployment - surprisingly they were reluctant to accept them until we cleared it with their US supervisors. Seemed like hard-working, honest, decent folks to me.
    Last edited by Schmedlap; 09-07-2009 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Added

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    Council Member sandbag's Avatar
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    And doubtless the majority are, man. I know this to be true, as well. Like the Army, a "few bad apples", etc.

    Where a problem seems to exist with regards to support contractors is out-of-scope violations by entities other than the Contracting Officer.

    Case in point: I know of a contractor performing work ordered within scope by the KO to pour sidewalks at a FOB. The sidewalk-making was going well and within cost, schedule and performance parameters. Then a senior soldier (we'll keep the rank out of this on principle) decided he needed a sidewalk to his quarters, along with one for his boss. He directed the contractor to perform this. The contractor's on-site supervisor, not having a full command of the language, and doing what DCUs tell him to, begins pouring the extra sidewalks.

    Needless to say, confusion, frustration and anger reigned with both the KO and the contractor when the project busted the parameters. Evil, greedy contractor? Not hardly. Government conspiracy? Nope. Apparent authority mis-utilized? Yep.

    While a relatively-harmless (I say "relatively", as no loss of life, limb or eyesight occurred, but your tax dollars bought some turd the luxury of not getting his feet dusty enroute to the latrine), it's a good case in point that the Government/Contractor team can get befuddled or just plain mutually injured. The situation on the ground often aggravates this.



    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    Seemed like hard-working, honest, decent folks to me.

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    Sandbag,

    That's a good story that illustrates a dynamic that most people are not aware of - including me, until now.

    It squares 100% with the madness that I observed on the FOBs. The first time that I visited a FOB - in 2005 - was an attempt to secure some lumber in order to build overhead cover for my Soldiers in a newly established outpost that was getting hammered with RPGs and mortars. I could not get any lumber. It was not available in the supply system - or so everyone said. But, curiously, the FOB landscape was peppered with wooden bus stops, wooden stairways leading to wooden rooftop decks, and wooden porches, wooden verandas, wooden gazebos, and - my personal favorite - some aviation unit actually constructed a wild west style saloon. Glad we bought lumber at a fat premium to ensure a handful of pilots could enjoy their midnight chow in aesthetically pleasing and properly-themed settings. I found it amazing that Soldiers had the time, tools, and know-how to build some of those elaborate structures. In hindsight, it was probably contractors - and plausibly the fraud/waste/abuse was committed in a manner similar to what you described. FWIW, I immediately emailed the Army's fraud/waste/abuse whisteblower email. Eight months later, I got a generic "thanks for contacting us."

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Did somebody get that idiot to pay the Government the added cost

    Quote Originally Posted by sandbag View Post
    I know of a contractor performing work ordered within scope by the KO to pour sidewalks at a FOB. The sidewalk-making was going well and within cost, schedule and performance parameters. Then a senior soldier (we'll keep the rank out of this on principle) decided he needed a sidewalk to his quarters, along with one for his boss. He directed the contractor to perform this. The contractor's on-site supervisor, not having a full command of the language, and doing what DCUs tell him to, begins pouring the extra sidewalks.

    Needless to say, confusion, frustration and anger reigned with both the KO and the contractor when the project busted the parameters. Evil, greedy contractor? Not hardly. Government conspiracy? Nope. Apparent authority mis-utilized? Yep.
    Being a senior soldier of whatever rank doesn't entitle anyone to get away with stupid actions and doesn't prevent them from doing wrong -- but the system can cope with that; even if no disciplinary action was taken (should have been) he or she could still have been zapped for some funds for misappriopriation.

    As long as stupidity like that is tolerated it encourages the idiots in Congress to pass even more dumb laws or others to write even more Regs that penalize the innocent and let guilty doofuses like that slide.

    Not to mention Commanders that tolerate idiocy in their name, even if they weren't aware of it-- they should have been -- and don't stop it as soon as it appears as it usually does. That failure just encourage other Doofuses to say "The Boss wants ..." often without a clue to what the Boss might actually want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    I dealt with contractors primarily in the realm of supply and maintenance. I do not know if it is cultural, bureaucratic, or both, but I had nothing but problems with Army personnel when it came to supply and maintenance. ...

    Contractors were the most user-friendly folks that I met in Iraq.
    I wonder if this is because most contractors are older, at least middle aged, and they want to be there, for the money, but just as importantly, to help the soldiers.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    I wonder if this is because most contractors are older, at least middle aged, and they want to be there, for the money, but just as importantly, to help the soldiers.
    I'm sure that is a large part of it. I remember a couple of guys with big white bushy beards - they both looked like Santa Claus. They remarked something along the lines of, "nobody gave a damn about us in Vietnam. We're gonna make sure you boys get what you need." One of them then smashed a damaged SAW with a sledge hammer and said, "looks like this is a code-out. Here's a new one." Now that is cutting through some red tape.

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    Sad, the recent events with Blackwater have given contractors overall a bad name. Indeed not the case. Been on both sides of the fence in Africa, Afghanistan and Europe. Being armed in some of the world’s most inhospitable places doesn’t directly translate into ‘out of your mind free for all’. The individual, regardless of whose paying him/her, is still morally responsible.

    I don’t care much for labeling contractors…most of the folks I know are former military and still hold values and home close.

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    Speaking as a contractor, who does not go outside the wire on the ground, the only time the Army ever expresses any annoyance with us is when we get confused with paperwork procedures. I have no military experience so it is mostly a mystery to me, but I am learning bit by bit. Civilian pilots tend to be a bit creative sometimes. That works in the States and Africa but it isn't worth the minor trouble it can cause here.

    The other thing that is hard for civilian pilots to grasp is how the seeming rigidity of the paperwork procedures contrasts with the flexibility once you get aloft. Flying in the States is very structured, do this now in this manner etc. Here there is a lot more freedom given to allow the tactical job to get done. That is hard for some civilian pilots to get used to.

    Other than that, they feed me for free in the chow hall and there are six kinds of ice cream so I am happy.

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