"MoveOn" to 5GW?

[Ratzel]

I find the idea that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phone card pretty silly. To be frank, I also find the assertion that Moveon wants to "bring down the American government" pretty silly. They are free to promote their extremists agenda just as those from the other end of the political spectrum are.

Yes, they are free to promote their extremist agenda, and I would never suggest that they don't have that right. But I do see MoveOn as an organ for international leftism. This force didn't just go away after the Soviet Union Collapsed, they started other ventures. The rank and file members are mostly made up of college "revolutionaries," but they do have some pretty heavy hitting financiers.

I also find the idea "that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phonecard" to be pretty silly. But I have seen these groups attempt to recruit disgruntled soldiers as well as literally throwing things at recruiters. During the Vietnam war, the left attempted to subvert the US Army and to some degree, did a good job. Of course we don't have a draft Army, but the potential still exists. Just not at the same scale.

I would not claim to be an expert at anything, but I have spent time studying radical political movements. And while it may not be MoveOn's main objective to bring down the US Government, it is certainly the goal of the International leftist Movement. MoveOn has a role to play in it just as the radical environmentalist groups, "anti-racist" groups, and open borders groups. Taking out an ad mocking the highest ranking military commander in the country during wartime is quite subversive.

As this country continues to change demographically, these type of groups are going to become more powerful. They will continue to agitate the new hispanic immigrants entering this country along with other people feeling disenfranchised and will take advantage of the ever increasing income gap. Leftism is growing very fast in South America and places like Columbia or Venezuela could easily become the base of support for arms and money to guerrillas in North America.

This may sound outlandish or "pretty silly" at the present time, but I see a lot of change coming to the world in the next 30-50 years and I don't take anything for granite.

[SteveMetz]

Yes, they are free to promote their extremist agenda, and I would never suggest that they don't have that right. But I do see MoveOn as an organ for international leftism. This force didn't just go away after the Soviet Union Collapsed, they started other ventures. The rank and file members are mostly made up of college "revolutionaries," but they do have some pretty heavy hitting financiers.

I also find the idea "that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phonecard" to be pretty silly. But I have seen these groups attempt to recruit disgruntled soldiers as well as literally throwing things at recruiters. During the Vietnam war, the left attempted to subvert the US Army and to some degree, did a good job. Of course we don't have a draft Army, but the potential still exists. Just not at the same scale.

I would not claim to be an expert at anything, but I have spent time studying radical political movements. And while it may not be MoveOn's main objective to bring down the US Government, it is certainly the goal of the International leftist Movement. MoveOn has a role to play in it just as the radical environmentalist groups, "anti-racist" groups, and open borders groups. Taking out an ad mocking the highest ranking military commander in the country during wartime is quite subversive.

As this country continues to change demographically, these type of groups are going to become more powerful. They will continue to agitate the new hispanic immigrants entering this country along with other people feeling disenfranchised and will take advantage of the ever increasing income gap. Leftism is growing very fast in South America and places like Columbia or Venezuela could easily become the base of support for arms and money to guerrillas in North America.

This may sound outlandish or "pretty silly" at the present time, but I see a lot of change coming to the world in the next 30-50 years and I don't take anything for granite.

Well, we'll agree to disagree. I don't consider Moveon any more of a radical leftist group than the 700 Club is part of a transnational fascist movement. I'm not what you refer to "an ad mocking the highest ranking military commander in the country" and I personally don't consider this "wartime."

Leftism is not "growing very fast in South America." It's existed there for 100 years and is not growing any more now than it ever did. And I find the idea of "places like Columbia [sic] or Venezuela" becoming "the base of support for arms and money to guerrillas in North America" pretty looney.

[Ratzel]

Well, we'll agree to disagree. .

I agree.

I probably should have started this thread asking a different question. I've been thinking about 5GW and how the International Communist Movement operated tactically and strategically. The left realized after WWI that the workers of the West wouldn't rise up against the capitalist class. They noticed that the Western people believed in God, nation, ethnicity, and family before the writings of some academics they never heard of. The left realized it needed to destroy and discredit these institutions and concepts.

Their first mission was to control the education system. This has resulted in Western Children hating their own history and assuming a nihilistic attitude about their own identities. An American child today sees the founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.

So my new and improved question is: Is the left engaging in 5GW by attacking, distorting, and perverting the traditional institutions and systems(family, culture, God, patriotism) of the West.

[SteveMetz]

I agree.

I probably should have started this thread asking a different question. I've been thinking about 5GW and how the International Communist Movement operated tactically and strategically. The left realized after WWI that the workers of the West wouldn't rise up against the capitalist class. They noticed that the Western people believed in God, nation, ethnicity, and family before the writings of some academics they never heard of. The left realized it needed to destroy and discredit these institutions and concepts.

Their first mission was to control the education system. This has resulted in Western Children hating their own history and assuming a nihilistic attitude about their own identities. An American child today sees the founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.

So my new and improved question is: Is the left engaging in 5GW by attacking, distorting, and perverting the traditional institutions and systems(family, culture, God, patriotism) of the West.

My children don't "hate their own history" or have a nihilistic identity. They don't see the "he founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.

I don't think there is A "left" as per your caricature.

[Ratzel]

My children don't "hate their own history" or have a nihilistic identity. They don't see the "he founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.

I don't know how old you are but this is a common theme on college campuses today. Anyway, this thread may have been a mistake? I just learned of this 5GW concept and am trying to conceptualize it. If all possible, maybe we can erase this thread from existence and pretend it never happened? A sort of, what happens at this thread stays at this thread type of a thing? Can someone arrange this?

[SteveMetz]

I don't know how old you are but this is a common theme on college campuses today. Anyway, this thread may have been a mistake? I just learned of this 5GW concept and am trying to conceptualize it. If all possible, maybe we can erase this thread from existence and pretend it never happened? A sort of, what happens at this thread stays at this thread type of a thing? Can someone arrange this?

I'm a former college professor and have two kids in college now. There are academics who spout the line you indicate. But I think you are grossly overstating the extent to which they have created a nihilistic generation that hates its heritage. In fact, I think ideologues on the left have a more limited and less corrosive influence on the American polity than ideologues of the right like Rush Limbaugh. To say "the left" is undertaking 5GW is, in my opinion, simply caricature.

[selil]

I think since people think that fourth generation warfare is a decided (no it isn't) affair, then we've got to go out and discover the fifth generation. If I was going to place fifth generation warfare it would be firmly in the land of computer mediated warfare. At no other time in history have we had the capability of command, control, communication, and coordination. We often try and define cyber warfare as a limited engagement involving computers and the efficacious hooliganism of attacks within one of the three confidentiality, integrity, availability (CIA) triad.

I think if you look deeper the topic is much bigger and references a ground swell in adoption and adaption to strategies and abilities. Computers running UAV's, computers running Phalanx and other battle systems, IED sweeping robots (Roomba of the battle field), and so much more that didn't exist 25 years ago. Fifth generation warfare is not a simple information operation (IO) that might involve a political process. It is a ground swell and change in the active pursuit of kinetic and non-kinetic means of battle.

[JeffC]

This may sound outlandish or "pretty silly" at the present time, but I see a lot of change coming to the world in the next 30-50 years and I don't take anything for granite.

I could be mistaken but it seems like you're skating on the very thin ice of "conspiracy theories" (i.e., the "International Leftist Movement"), which isn't a productive topic here. As Ken White has frequently said, there are lots of other forums on the Web where such theories are not only tolerated but welcomed.

I do want to congratulate you on your closing sentence "I don't take anything for granite". I don't think I've ever heard that bit of advice "Don't take anything for granted" re-phrased in quite that way before. It's funny and it kind of makes sense.

[Ratzel]

I could be mistaken but it seems like you're skating on the very thin ice of "conspiracy theories" (i.e., the "International Leftist Movement"), which isn't a productive topic here. As Ken White has frequently said, there are lots of other forums on the Web where such theories are not only tolerated but welcomed.

I do want to congratulate you on your closing sentence "I don't take anything for granite". I don't think I've ever heard that bit of advice "Don't take anything for granted" re-phrased in quite that way before. It's funny and it kind of makes sense.

Yes, I need to be more careful when using the spell check. Thank you for pointing that out. I did rephrase the post but if you think its not appropriate for this forum then please do erase it. I'll refrain from posting on this thread until I get the authorization.

[JeffC]

Yes, I need to be more careful when using the spell check. Thank you for pointing that out. I did rephrase the post but if you think its not appropriate for this forum then please do erase it. I'll refrain from posting on this thread until I get the authorization.

Well, the spell check would have recognized "granite" as a word so no joy there. I actually thought that you used it on purpose, rather than it being a typo. I'm definitely going to use "don't take anything for granite" in future online exchanges!

Regarding your re-phrase, I'm not a moderator, I'm just another forum member, like yourself, and making a friendly suggestion. Topics that are polarizing, particularly in terms of politics and religion, or that attempt to lump people in rigidly defined groups, generally don't do well here. I have a feeling that your new and improved topic will not be well-received for those reasons.

[Uboat509]

I could be mistaken but it seems like you're skating on the very thin ice of "conspiracy theories" (i.e., the "International Leftist Movement"), which isn't a productive topic here. As Ken White has frequently said, there are lots of other forums on the Web where such theories are not only tolerated but welcomed.

I am not sure that I agree. After all, we are apparently neocon-Zionists here, and possibly Illuminati as well. I was unaware of this but I am trying to learn. Should I be attending some sort of meetings? My father will not be amused.

SFC W

[Ken White]

I am not sure that I agree. After all, we are apparently neocon-Zionists here, and possibly Illuminati as well. I was unaware of this but I am trying to learn. Should I be attending some sort of meetings? My father will not be amused.

SFC W

I thought I was a liberal twinkie and I know I'm probably unilluminated. I HATE meetings. My Father was rarely amused at my humor. Come to think of it, my wife and kids aren't either. Neither are the neighbors -- and they think I'm a neanderthal...

Sigh. This is so confusing. What's bringing all this jazz outa the wood work? Christmas? Over bourboned Egg Nog?

I have trouble coping with complex theories, therefor I've decided to label myself as a neo-Zionistic proto diluvian and I'm sticking with that no matter what either side's fringe wants to call me. NZPD for short, not to be confused with the far better known (and probably more efficient) Slapout PD.

Fortunately, i'm old and therefor will not remember any of this tomorrow...

[Ron Humphrey]

Right, Right; that is the thing that Ken White runs.

Didn't you see the memo
He broke off and created the proto-diluvian subset.
Probably too many disagreements with the more purist interpretations.

I have trouble coping with complex theories, therefor I've decided to label myself as a neo-Zionistic proto diluvian and I'm sticking with that no matter what either side's fringe wants to call me. NZPD for short, not to be confused with the far better known (and probably more efficient) Slapout PD.

I myself have chose a more definative path of NZOOSRP
( Neocon-Zionist-Over-Optimistic-Somewhat-Realistically-Pragmatist)