"MoveOn" to 5GW?

[Ratzel]

The leftest organization "MoveOn.org" raised 300,000 for phone cards for troops in Iraq. I'm sure most of you are familiar with this organization but if you're not, here's a link.
http://www.moveon.org/

Like most leftest organizations, MoveOn generally supports the leftest policies we're all familiar with. They're generally in favor of Socialist economic policies, open borders, anti-war rhetoric, extremist environmentalist, egalitarism and other policies that would drastically change the U.S. Therefore, we could say, that they want to do away with the US as we know it. So by sending phone cards to US soldiers, they may wish to gain favor with disgruntled soldiers. Disgruntled soldiers are very valuable to the anti-war effort.

So my question is: Is MoveOn[dot]org conducting 5GW in order to bring down the US government, and radically change American life? Or, do I not understand Fifth Generation Warfare?

Here's a link to the story:
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news...00_for_th.html

[Uboat509]

MoveOn.org represents the worst of the far left. Unfortunately, our soldiers have become a political pawns in that both sides are trying to say that they support the troops more than the other side. In the left it has become very fashionable to say that you support the troops but not the war, whether or not it's actually true. The phone card thing is little more than a public relations stunt to that end.

SFC W

[SteveMetz]

I find the idea that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phone card pretty silly. To be frank, I also find the assertion that Moveon wants to "bring down the American government" pretty silly. They are free to promote their extremists agenda just as those from the other end of the political spectrum are.

[Ratzel]

I find the idea that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phone card pretty silly. To be frank, I also find the assertion that Moveon wants to "bring down the American government" pretty silly. They are free to promote their extremists agenda just as those from the other end of the political spectrum are.

Yes, they are free to promote their extremist agenda, and I would never suggest that they don't have that right. But I do see MoveOn as an organ for international leftism. This force didn't just go away after the Soviet Union Collapsed, they started other ventures. The rank and file members are mostly made up of college "revolutionaries," but they do have some pretty heavy hitting financiers.

I also find the idea "that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phonecard" to be pretty silly. But I have seen these groups attempt to recruit disgruntled soldiers as well as literally throwing things at recruiters. During the Vietnam war, the left attempted to subvert the US Army and to some degree, did a good job. Of course we don't have a draft Army, but the potential still exists. Just not at the same scale.

I would not claim to be an expert at anything, but I have spent time studying radical political movements. And while it may not be MoveOn's main objective to bring down the US Government, it is certainly the goal of the International leftist Movement. MoveOn has a role to play in it just as the radical environmentalist groups, "anti-racist" groups, and open borders groups. Taking out an ad mocking the highest ranking military commander in the country during wartime is quite subversive.

As this country continues to change demographically, these type of groups are going to become more powerful. They will continue to agitate the new hispanic immigrants entering this country along with other people feeling disenfranchised and will take advantage of the ever increasing income gap. Leftism is growing very fast in South America and places like Columbia or Venezuela could easily become the base of support for arms and money to guerrillas in North America.

This may sound outlandish or "pretty silly" at the present time, but I see a lot of change coming to the world in the next 30-50 years and I don't take anything for granite.

[SteveMetz]

Yes, they are free to promote their extremist agenda, and I would never suggest that they don't have that right. But I do see MoveOn as an organ for international leftism. This force didn't just go away after the Soviet Union Collapsed, they started other ventures. The rank and file members are mostly made up of college "revolutionaries," but they do have some pretty heavy hitting financiers.

I also find the idea "that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phonecard" to be pretty silly. But I have seen these groups attempt to recruit disgruntled soldiers as well as literally throwing things at recruiters. During the Vietnam war, the left attempted to subvert the US Army and to some degree, did a good job. Of course we don't have a draft Army, but the potential still exists. Just not at the same scale.

I would not claim to be an expert at anything, but I have spent time studying radical political movements. And while it may not be MoveOn's main objective to bring down the US Government, it is certainly the goal of the International leftist Movement. MoveOn has a role to play in it just as the radical environmentalist groups, "anti-racist" groups, and open borders groups. Taking out an ad mocking the highest ranking military commander in the country during wartime is quite subversive.

As this country continues to change demographically, these type of groups are going to become more powerful. They will continue to agitate the new hispanic immigrants entering this country along with other people feeling disenfranchised and will take advantage of the ever increasing income gap. Leftism is growing very fast in South America and places like Columbia or Venezuela could easily become the base of support for arms and money to guerrillas in North America.

This may sound outlandish or "pretty silly" at the present time, but I see a lot of change coming to the world in the next 30-50 years and I don't take anything for granite.

Well, we'll agree to disagree. I don't consider Moveon any more of a radical leftist group than the 700 Club is part of a transnational fascist movement. I'm not what you refer to "an ad mocking the highest ranking military commander in the country" and I personally don't consider this "wartime."

Leftism is not "growing very fast in South America." It's existed there for 100 years and is not growing any more now than it ever did. And I find the idea of "places like Columbia [sic] or Venezuela" becoming "the base of support for arms and money to guerrillas in North America" pretty looney.

[Ratzel]

Well, we'll agree to disagree. .

I agree.

I probably should have started this thread asking a different question. I've been thinking about 5GW and how the International Communist Movement operated tactically and strategically. The left realized after WWI that the workers of the West wouldn't rise up against the capitalist class. They noticed that the Western people believed in God, nation, ethnicity, and family before the writings of some academics they never heard of. The left realized it needed to destroy and discredit these institutions and concepts.

Their first mission was to control the education system. This has resulted in Western Children hating their own history and assuming a nihilistic attitude about their own identities. An American child today sees the founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.

So my new and improved question is: Is the left engaging in 5GW by attacking, distorting, and perverting the traditional institutions and systems(family, culture, God, patriotism) of the West.

[SteveMetz]

I agree.

I probably should have started this thread asking a different question. I've been thinking about 5GW and how the International Communist Movement operated tactically and strategically. The left realized after WWI that the workers of the West wouldn't rise up against the capitalist class. They noticed that the Western people believed in God, nation, ethnicity, and family before the writings of some academics they never heard of. The left realized it needed to destroy and discredit these institutions and concepts.

Their first mission was to control the education system. This has resulted in Western Children hating their own history and assuming a nihilistic attitude about their own identities. An American child today sees the founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.

So my new and improved question is: Is the left engaging in 5GW by attacking, distorting, and perverting the traditional institutions and systems(family, culture, God, patriotism) of the West.

My children don't "hate their own history" or have a nihilistic identity. They don't see the "he founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.

I don't think there is A "left" as per your caricature.

[JeffC]

This may sound outlandish or "pretty silly" at the present time, but I see a lot of change coming to the world in the next 30-50 years and I don't take anything for granite.

I could be mistaken but it seems like you're skating on the very thin ice of "conspiracy theories" (i.e., the "International Leftist Movement"), which isn't a productive topic here. As Ken White has frequently said, there are lots of other forums on the Web where such theories are not only tolerated but welcomed.

I do want to congratulate you on your closing sentence "I don't take anything for granite". I don't think I've ever heard that bit of advice "Don't take anything for granted" re-phrased in quite that way before. It's funny and it kind of makes sense.

[Ratzel]

I could be mistaken but it seems like you're skating on the very thin ice of "conspiracy theories" (i.e., the "International Leftist Movement"), which isn't a productive topic here. As Ken White has frequently said, there are lots of other forums on the Web where such theories are not only tolerated but welcomed.

I do want to congratulate you on your closing sentence "I don't take anything for granite". I don't think I've ever heard that bit of advice "Don't take anything for granted" re-phrased in quite that way before. It's funny and it kind of makes sense.

Yes, I need to be more careful when using the spell check. Thank you for pointing that out. I did rephrase the post but if you think its not appropriate for this forum then please do erase it. I'll refrain from posting on this thread until I get the authorization.

[JeffC]

Yes, I need to be more careful when using the spell check. Thank you for pointing that out. I did rephrase the post but if you think its not appropriate for this forum then please do erase it. I'll refrain from posting on this thread until I get the authorization.

Well, the spell check would have recognized "granite" as a word so no joy there. I actually thought that you used it on purpose, rather than it being a typo. I'm definitely going to use "don't take anything for granite" in future online exchanges!

Regarding your re-phrase, I'm not a moderator, I'm just another forum member, like yourself, and making a friendly suggestion. Topics that are polarizing, particularly in terms of politics and religion, or that attempt to lump people in rigidly defined groups, generally don't do well here. I have a feeling that your new and improved topic will not be well-received for those reasons.

[Uboat509]

I could be mistaken but it seems like you're skating on the very thin ice of "conspiracy theories" (i.e., the "International Leftist Movement"), which isn't a productive topic here. As Ken White has frequently said, there are lots of other forums on the Web where such theories are not only tolerated but welcomed.

I am not sure that I agree. After all, we are apparently neocon-Zionists here, and possibly Illuminati as well. I was unaware of this but I am trying to learn. Should I be attending some sort of meetings? My father will not be amused.

SFC W

[Ken White]

I am not sure that I agree. After all, we are apparently neocon-Zionists here, and possibly Illuminati as well. I was unaware of this but I am trying to learn. Should I be attending some sort of meetings? My father will not be amused.

SFC W

I thought I was a liberal twinkie and I know I'm probably unilluminated. I HATE meetings. My Father was rarely amused at my humor. Come to think of it, my wife and kids aren't either. Neither are the neighbors -- and they think I'm a neanderthal...

Sigh. This is so confusing. What's bringing all this jazz outa the wood work? Christmas? Over bourboned Egg Nog?

I have trouble coping with complex theories, therefor I've decided to label myself as a neo-Zionistic proto diluvian and I'm sticking with that no matter what either side's fringe wants to call me. NZPD for short, not to be confused with the far better known (and probably more efficient) Slapout PD.

Fortunately, i'm old and therefor will not remember any of this tomorrow...

[bourbon]

Maybe, but I doubt it. They are sending the phone cards through the USO, so I doubt they will be able to pass along any agitprop. I wouldn't be quick view this as a nefarious plot, knowing some members of MoveOn and other antiwar groups – I will say they are not all bad people - if not misguided. For a well funded, networked, large public policy advocacy group, I think they do not pull their own weight and underperform.

I have got to laugh at the notion that there currently is a sociopolitical antiwar-movement in this country of any substance beyond collective self-gratification. Scott Ritter is a guy who I respect, he's a former Marine Corps intelligence officer, weapons inspector, and a conservative. But at the same time he is 'antiwar', he has written a book called Waging Peace: The Art of War for the Antiwar Movement that outlines why the antiwar movement has repeatedly failed and offers strategy to improve it. If the antiwar movement followed this book their effectiveness would increase by several orders of magnitude imho. But from what I can see it has largely fallen on deaf ears, the antiwar movement remains flacid and inept.

This is video of a speech Scott Ritter has given on the matter: Waging Peace: The Art of War for the Antiwar Movement

[Ratzel]

Maybe, but I doubt it. They are sending the phone cards through the USO, so I doubt they will be able to pass along any agitprop. I wouldn't be quick view this as a nefarious plot, knowing some members of MoveOn and other antiwar groups – I will say they are not all bad people - if not misguided. For a well funded, networked, large public policy advocacy group, I think they do not pull their own weight and underperform.

I have got to laugh at the notion that there currently is a sociopolitical antiwar-movement in this country of any substance beyond collective self-gratification. Scott Ritter is a guy who I respect, he's a former Marine Corps intelligence officer, weapons inspector, and a conservative. But at the same time he is 'antiwar', he has written a book called Waging Peace: The Art of War for the Antiwar Movement that outlines why the antiwar movement has repeatedly failed and offers strategy to improve it. If the antiwar movement followed this book their effectiveness would increase by several orders of magnitude imho. But from what I can see it has largely fallen on deaf ears, the antiwar movement remains flacid and inept.

This is video of a speech Scott Ritter has given on the matter: Waging Peace: The Art of War for the Antiwar Movement

Yes, I think Ritter is a stand up guy too. Before the Iraq war, I was in a trailer PX in Kuwait and seen a little book for sale. It was a warning to the country that the Bush Administration was bringing us to war based on faulty evidence. It also said that there are no WMD's in Iraq. I purchased it and read it and remember thinking "who the hell is this liberal?" That "Liberal" ended up being Scott Ritter.