"Face" among the Arabs

[Ratzel]

Here's a very interesting report written by the CIA regarding Arab reasoning relating to the idea of objective truth. Here's a sample:

"George Washington, American children are told, having cut down his father's favorite cherry tree, showed his sterling character by confessing to the deed. An Arab hearing this story not only fails to see the moral beauty of such behavior but wonders why anyone would ever compromise his integrity by admitting thus his guilt. As to Washington's explanation that "I cannot tell a lie," the Arab asks how a man could rise to the presidency if he were not suave enough to use a wellconcocted falsehood as a tactic in emergency behavior. "

I was reading through some CIA reports and thought some of you may find this report useful, or at least, somewhat interesting? While we never want to stereotype or become deterministic in our analysis of different cultures/ethnicities, I do feel there may be something to this authors' analysis. Those of you who have either been to, or are currently in Iraq(or an Arab region), may have noticed these characteristics yourself? Please check out this report, as this information may be of use to you. Anyone else who's interested in issues of cultural cognition may like this report as well? Maybe we can discuss it? Link below:

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...3a05p_0001.htm

[Ken White]

that was over 30 years ago but I still see and correspond with friends and acquaintances there and from there and know little has changed.

I believe the analysis significantly understates the various differences in attitude. The reactions cited are IMO quite prevalent and endemic throughout the ME and are generally correct without regard to class and apply to many, not all, who have obtained degrees in the west.

The military aspects of the behavior patterns are not to be discounted; exaggerating (or minimizing) in reporting, deferring to social if not military seniors, appointments based on who one knows instead of what one knows plus several others all have an impact on military performance.

[Rex Brynen]

Here's a very interesting report written by the CIA regarding Arab reasoning relating to the idea of objective truth. Here's a sample:

The analysis is, I think, a very old one (1964, if I remember correctly). It wouldn't past muster these days in either the social sciences (Marc may care to have a go at it as an athropologist), or in the cultural/social-psychology analytical material that the intelligence community produces today.

This is not to say, of course, that there aren't important cultural traits and tendencies--there are. But they vary by class, age, location, and education far more than the piece credits.

Having studied the region my entire professional career, and having worked both in the Arab world and with many, many Arab colleagues, I simply don't find the generalizations fit in any way that is useful. I've found no greater propensity to lie, for example--a centerpiece of the analysis.

Indeed, rather paradoxically, it is fair to say that most of the Middle East regard the West as having a flexible attitude to the truth, an accusation that one often hears backed with a litany of real and exaggerated grievances regarding colonial and post-colonial Western duplicity. It wouldn't be terribly hard to frame those anecdotes with some quotes from Machiavelli (or Lord Palmerston) and produce a similar alleged portrayal of American and European "culture."

Again, I'm not saying that there are no cultural attitudes at play--there clearly are, they are rich, complex, and multifacted, and they ought to be understood. But something this simplistic is, I think, far more likely to lead case officers and analysts astray than strengthen their actions and judgments.

[Tom Odom]

My former NCO, Anthony Hoh (also on here) blew through a couple of weeks ago fressh from MiTT training and headed for OEF. he dropped off several books he had picked up. One I am reading now is titled, Understanding Arabs, by Margaret K, Nydell.

So far it resonates with me and echoes my sensing after two decades of watching the region and living in it for a number of years. One aspect that I really liked is that the author dismissed the Patai Arab Mind pablum that still gets pushed with a partisan agenda. Correctly she notes that Patai's work was on the Bedouin in the 1930s; the Bedo were not a good model for the "Arabs" then. They have much less currency today.

Nydell's work is an easy read and deliberately so. I have no doubt that Marc as a professional anthropologist will find it (or has found it) somewhat simplistic. There is no jargon. Just straight forward prose to communicate subtly complex ideas with a view to answering the critical "so what?" question.

Best

Tom

[marct]

The analysis is, I think, a very old one (1964, if I remember correctly). It wouldn't past muster these days in either the social sciences (Marc may care to have a go at it as an athropologist), or in the cultural/social-psychology analytical material that the intelligence community produces today.

I think that the real problem with this "analysis" is that it really doesn't explain why the culture trait is there - i.e. it doesn't contextualize it in a system. Why is it so systemically important and what other parts of the culture does it tie in to?

Does it happen? Sure - I've dealt with students who operated like this. The real problem is that it doesn't give you a good guideline on understanding the trait and using it. For example, the term "face" shows up over an over again, which is a really dumb thing to do - "face" (coming from the Japanese concept of "On") - is from a totally different system. "Honour" or "dignity" would be better terms, but it still needs to be tied back into the system. For example, who is allowed to keep someone else's "honour"? Admitting a "mistake" is giving your honour into the hands of the person you make the admition to - how can you trust them?

[Ron Humphrey]

I don't see as much difference between the societies in general considering how uncomfortable most westerners are also whenever someone really transparent is around.

I'm referencing those of us who usually put it all out there rather than holding things back. This makes many uncomfortable and using Marc's statement

Admitting a "mistake" is giving your honor into the hands of the person you make the admition to

It might not be so hard to understand why this is troubling to many.

Who among us is truly comfortable having the ("power" / responsibility) of another's honor in our hands.

[Rank amateur]

I'm referencing those of us who usually put it all out there rather than holding things back.

It's possible people disagree with what you're saying, not just how you're saying it.

I do think, however, that the concept of saving face is universal and important in small wars. We pulled out of Vietnam when we were able to save face. The Sunnis never surrendered; they just started fighting someone else. People don't like to surrender. If we're not going to crush countries like we did Germany and Japan, we need to leave people a diplomatic way to save face, beyond giving everyone a purple finger which has proven to have some limitations. (I believe Von Clausewitz has a lot to say about this. Total War, politics by other means etc..)

[Ken White]

I have come to the conclusion that no westerner will ever be an 'expert' on the ME and particularly on the more subtle cultural nuances that are endemic. I agree with much written by Bernard Lewis and some written by Juan Cole -- I also disagree with them on some points. My contention is that we all view the area and its people through the prism of our western cultural upbringing and thus gain a distorted view and that degree of distortion varies based on the prism each of has embedded as well as the length of time and depth of exposure to the total culture as opposed to a specific strata or locale of that culture.

For example, Rex says:

"This is not to say, of course, that there aren't important cultural traits and tendencies--there are. But they vary by class, age, location, and education far more than the piece credits."

True in any society -- and true of any outsider viewing another society. I also agree with Marc, "Face" is not a good word for the cultural impacts highlighted by the CIA 'analysis' (which, like many of their analyses, is flawed on several levels IMO). It is far deeper and more pervasive than that.

He adds:

"Having studied the region my entire professional career, and having worked both in the Arab world and with many, many Arab colleagues, I simply don't find the generalizations fit in any way that is useful. I've found no greater propensity to lie, for example--a centerpiece of the analysis."

Agreed. I'd go further; in my experience most Muslims are less prone to lying than are most Christians. However, most Muslims also have different -- not wrong, just different -- standards of both accuracy and personal accountability which can have the effect of seeming to be less than honest in the western sense.

Bakshish, a word known throughout the area (and a practice followed there and elsewhere) is a Persian word and those Persians at one time ruled the entire area for centuries. They believe there are two people in everyone, the zaher and the batin -- the public and the private and these can be two quite different personalities. The public personality is ruled by Ta'arof and is firmly inculcated with politeness which means people should be told what they want to hear. Most in the ME believe that to dissemble for personal or family gain is not a lie, it is an absolute and moral requirement. There are significant differences in our cultures, not wrong -- just different.

Folks in the ME are very proud – but the degree of fight they will show is predicated on who is in the audience. If a resident of the ME is accosted, he will scan for an audience, if there is none or there is no one he knows present, he will grovel. This is not seen as dishonorable, only sensible. OTOH, if he sees someone he knows slightly, he is likely to bluster but may still cave in; if he sees a family member he will fight.

A more critical aspect of the culture, one that impacts on diplomacy and warfighting is that the National Sport throughout the ME is Haggling. Any concession is viewed as a weakness and to be exploited. That factor deserves considerable thought...

The CIA effort is mildly flawed but IMO it is not totally out to lunch. It unduly simplifies many aspects, no question, however I believe it understates rather than overstates.

[Rank amateur]

is firmly inculcated with politeness which means people should be told what they want to hear.

Reminds me of Alabama. I've never had a knife shoved in my back more politely than in Alabama.

[Ken White]

Reminds me of Alabama. I've never had a knife shoved in my back more politely than in Alabama.

I've noticed that happens when folks come down South from up North. People in the South can be so doggone oversensitive to the slightest hint of anything even bordering patronization and suffer from their dogged (no pun intended) determination to get even...

[Tom Odom]

I've noticed that happens when folks come down South from up North. People in the South can be so doggone oversensitive to the slightest hint of anything even bordering patronization and suffer from their dogged (no pun intended) determination to get even...

Thas right, Ken. We even take the pots off tha porch

And what's this I hear about a Northern Command? And who said they could put an Army North in Texas and an Air force North in Florida? This ain't patronization; its colonization...

[Ken White]

be at Great Lakes while MarForNor will be colocated here (LINK) [conjecture on my part but as logical as the others]. Something for everyone, the American way.

I have ordered a pot for Slap from Amazon and it should be delivered in time for the book signing. Please, no applause -- it's the least I can do for an old paratrooper.

And an old author...

[marct]

I have ordered a pot for Slap from Amazon and it should be delivered in time for the book signing. Please, no applause -- it's the least I can do for an old paratrooper.

I'll go ahead and cancel that order for Depe..... Oooooops!

[Ken White]

I'll go ahead and cancel that order for Depe..... Oooooops!

With those, neither signings nor pool games need be interrupted for inconsequentials...

[Penta]

With those, neither signings nor pool games need be interrupted for inconsequentials...

...

...

...TMI from the old geezers...

[Ken White]

Gives you at least one thing to look forward to...

[Ron Humphrey]

Gives you at least one thing to look forward to...

Then I think I'm going to work harder at being retrospective from now on

[Ken White]

Do not prostrate your self, though.

[Rifleman]

A little off topic but somewhat related: have any cops here ever had an Arab suspect in the interview/interrogation room? How did it go? Did you use a confrontational method like Reid?

Just curious. I haven't run into this yet but someday I might.

[selil]

I have. I never used confrontation. My Supervisors said people just like to tell me how they did it. To me it meant I got confessions usually over coffee.