He is correctly mounting the weapon. It's an M4, not a Perazzi.
He is correctly mounting the weapon. It's an M4, not a Perazzi.
Uh, I hate to bother you but could you explain
this to an old guy who doesn't know about 'mounting' weapons or understand the reference to a shotgun?Originally Posted by SethB
The only people that still use rulers to measure length of pull are the wing shooters. When they bring the weapon up from the high ready that they favor, they call it mounting, and for those purposes a long length of pull is an asset.
Most people that shoot M4s these days use the stock in, with their elbow down like shown in the picture. It gives you a short package, keeps your elbow from running into things, and squares your body up to the target.
Most people assume that this helps your rifle plate to catch lead, but it also helps the but to stay on your shoulder. If you turn too much it will slide off.
Some guys actually make pads that will help keep the toe of the stock from sliding.
He's using just the toe so that he doesn't have to lean his head down over the rifle to see the sight.
As for the finger on the trigger... that part is just plain wrong.
That fireteam leader appears to be issuing commands, and has probably come out of the TM-prescribed eye relief of 1.5" for the sight in doing so.
I don't think he has mounted the weapon properly though, and he certainly doesn't seem to be taking advantage of the use of a supported position (from the wall) to gain stability when firing. We don't shoot from those types of positions (save the prone) in training, and it tends to show as in these types of photos.
I recently spied video of a rifleman firing his A4 with the legs to his gripod extended, yet the weapon was elevated and the gripod useless because he was employing a magazine well hold.
This fireteam leader is not applying the fundamentals, and appears to simply be "putting rounds downrange" in a fashion that most of us find fairly difficult to swallow. Then again, it's also probably just silly showmanship for the reporter. The patrol leader could probably employ a little "fix and maneuver" finesse and move an M-ATV right down on top of the insurgents, given what the terrain looks like. He might be doing just that, but I doubt it.
The more I look at this Marine's loadout, the more I'm convinced we need to find another way in terms of M203 assignments. Take away all you want to say about using it to control illumination, or to employ HE fires that the TL can personally employ, and focus of just the weight math for a bit; just does not add up in their favor.
On top of the radio that he could be carrying, extra batteries, admin gear, low-density optics, etc., the TL has to carry more than the average rifleman by way of all the gold and white eggs he has on hand. There's some good reason for a bit of it, but when fatigue sets in, they are overall less effective as a leader and you can't tell me they are able to concentrate and lead as effectively. Mission essential equipment needs to be distributed across the element, and we have slipped a bit in the fieldcraft department over the years.
Last edited by jcustis; 02-21-2011 at 09:35 PM.
Just an observation. Neither the dude on jcustis’ photo nor the dude on BushrangerCZ’s photo (the one on the left) are looking through their scopes.
SethB, thanks for that rundown, that explains a lot. Body armour became a fashion just after I left so I was trained on the ‘old’ ways.
I can certainly see how that would work well for CQB. Just wondering, do these stances work equally well for longer range shots? It would appear to me that the posture is not quite so stable.
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ONWARD
Thanks. I knew I should've gone Pheasant Hunting with Lee Rael...
That's my new factoid for the day...
Click here if you have $80,000 to spend on a shotgun!Like Savile Row suits, Purdey guns are bespoke -- crafted to fit the shooter -- usually through measurements taken by a West London Shooting School instructor. He will use a "try gun," which can be adjusted until size and sight lines are perfect. Purdey stocks new guns in its South Audley Street shop for customers who don't want to wait 12 or more months for a custom job.
Nothing about shooting works well when you are wearing body armor.
The best thing to do is still go prone or find a barricade.
The downside being that if someone hits your barricade there is spall that could hit you.
How times change. When I was taught to shoot on the middle 1960s for the offhand position a right-handed shooter was taught to have his right elbow held up as high as possible. When firing offhand -- with the hasty sling, of course -- the World War II Dads coaching us also didn't like the practice of the left forearm being held down flush against the left torso.
The chicken wing creates a pocket for the recoil pad/plate to sit in. I still shoot some hunting rifles like that.
With the M16/M4, you have to adapt a little bit for best results. You don't need the stock in the pocket to absorb recoil.
It's all about accuracy and follow ups.
Here is a good photo.
Last edited by SethB; 02-22-2011 at 02:22 AM.
Really? That probably accounts for the general drop in standards then.
The simple method is take hold of the pistol grip turn the knuckles downwards with the butt (stock) flat on your forearm then lift the weapon up by bending the elbow. The perfect fit is when the weapon locks in the perpendicular position. If you can't get to the perp then the butt is too long and if you can get past the perp then it is too short. (adjust for any shoulder padding)
Where is the butt (stock) in the "high ready'?When they bring the weapon up from the high ready that they favor, they call it mounting, and for those purposes a long length of pull is an asset.
In the days when weapons which had a recoil were used the butt rested in the shoulder so that in one movement the barrel was raised and pointed at the target as your cheek found its position on the butt.
It appears that with low recoil weapons the position of the butt seems less important. The principles of marksmanship remain the same (aiming, holding, breathing, squeezing) Holding indicates a stable platform as being important. I would be interested to observe the fall of shots fired by weapons half in or half out of the shoulder or even with no shoulder contact at all. That is before we consider aiming, breathing and trigger action.
Not sure the position of the right arm makes that much difference other than at 45 degrees downwards being the most comfortable.Most people that shoot M4s these days use the stock in, with their elbow down like shown in the picture. It gives you a short package, keeps your elbow from running into things, and squares your body up to the target.
How so?Most people assume that this helps your rifle plate to catch lead, but it also helps the but to stay on your shoulder. If you turn too much it will slide off.
You see what lengths one has to go to if the butt (stock) is in the wrong position to start with.Some guys actually make pads that will help keep the toe of the stock from sliding.
Yes thats kind of weird. I read in a Brit weapon pamphlet the other day that after all this time they now advocate that the head when shooting should be in the upright position to help maintain your balance. Funny that in all my time I never heard of a soldier falling over because he cocked his head slightly to the right when aiming.He's using just the toe so that he doesn't have to lean his head down over the rifle to see the sight.
Agree and already noted.As for the finger on the trigger... that part is just plain wrong.
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