The Roles and Weapons with the Squad

[Bob's World]

I wish my uncle Hank were alive to weigh in on this. He carried an M1 Garand through several long years of jungle opns with the 27th regiment (Wolfhounds) of the 25th ID in WWII, and I mark his survival to the fact that he was probably hands down, the very best woodsman and marksman in all of Douglas County, Oregon. Uncanny eyesight and hearing, and an understanding of the environment born of a lifetime of hunting for his family's dinner and working in the woods as a timber faller.

I doubt he laid down much "suppressive fire," understanding that it gives away one's own position to do so. Particularly when you are not sure where the guys shooting at you are. I suspect he got very small and still, waited for some poor bastard to give away his own position, and then planted a .30 cal round vic. the middle of the guy's forehead, or whatever other body part he was careless enough to expose.

[William F. Owen]

I wish my uncle Hank were alive to weigh in on this. He carried an M1 Garand through several long years of jungle opns with the 27th regiment (Wolfhounds) of the 25th ID in WWII, and I mark his survival to the fact that he was probably hands down, the very best woodsman and marksman in all of Douglas County, Oregon. Uncanny eyesight and hearing, and an understanding of the environment born of a lifetime of hunting for his family's dinner and working in the woods as a timber faller.

No doubt a gifted and skilled man, but unless you can train those things into soldiers, for a reasonable price, then we are no further forward. The man we need to train, grew up in a city and has never slept a night outside in his life. The first rifle he had ever seen is the 2-3 MOA capable M4 you just issued him.

I doubt he laid down much "suppressive fire," understanding that it gives away one's own position to do so. Particularly when you are not sure where the guys shooting at you are. I suspect he got very small and still, waited for some poor bastard to give away his own position, and then planted a .30 cal round vic. the middle of the guy's forehead, or whatever other body part he was careless enough to expose.

I think context plays a fairly major part. If you get to shoot first, then an aimed shot is always best.
However, if you are being subject to heavy amounts of fire, from an enemy you cannot see, then I suggest a remedy may be found in doing the same but better.
Modern infantry tactics are in fact entirely built around the suppressive effects of small arms fire, so we cannot dismiss it lightly.

[Fuchs]

No doubt a gifted and skilled man, but unless you can train those things into soldiers, for a reasonable price, then we are no further forward. The man we need to train, grew up in a city and has never slept a night outside in his life. The first rifle he had ever seen is the 2-3 MOA capable M4 you just issued him.

I read a Vietnam autobiography of a LLRP and QRF soldier years ago. They had an indigenous scout as point man who taught him the whole point man thing and it seems as if the teaching took only a few months till he mastered it.

Sometime we need to learn to train our forces as if they were learning in actual combat (just with 100% survivors).

[Bob's World]

I believe that that stat is that if a soldier survives his first 30 days in combat, he is likely to survive his tour. Or said another way, those first 30 days are a bitch. The unit my uncle was in probably turned over in the neighborhood of 300-400% casualties each major operation it went in on. He said he got to where he could just look at the new guys and predict who wasn't going to make it, and that he avoided them in general as it was just too hard actually "knowing" so many people and having them die on you.

Not sure what the answer is, but we definitely owe the infantryman the very best gear we can. Too often that just isn't the case. The word "shoddy" is commonly understood to mean something of inferior quality. It is also a type of cloth used to make uniforms in the Civil War. I'm sure someone got quite rich.

[Compost]

An FN MAG-58/GPMG with 500 rounds weighs a total of 25.5kg. Distributed between two men this is 13.79kg and 11.76kg

An FN-LAR HB or modified HK-417 (heavy barrel, + bipod) with 500 rounds weighs about 21kg. This breaks down as a two man load of 10kg and 11kg.

Yes, magazines weight more than link, but the weight associated with belt fed weapons, tends to cancel this out, across realistic operational loads.

Now I have my own data sets, but I’d be grateful if someone wants to check those figures.

Definition of 7.62x51mm ammunition in STANAG 2310 has resulted in the national manufacture of rounds to various specifications. Most of those are for rounds which have a total weight in the range 370 to 393 grains, ie 23.98 to 25.47gm. (US Army data sheets published on the web have common ball, tracer and AP rounds in the range 387 to 393 grains.)

The weight of M13 links as covered by STANAG 2329 included the specification that 100 links should weight one pound, ie 454gm.

If those specs apply then a 100-rd M13 belt of 7.62 NATO will weigh 2.85 to 3.0 kg.

For light infantry, use of a free belt during tactical movement makes an MG liable to jam due to drag of the belt and especially its tendencies to twist and catch, and to collect and carry dirt into the action. So the system weight of such MGs should include one semi-permanently attached and easily refillable belt container (eg: MG3), or the weight of several quick attach/detach belt containers (eg: Minimi).

[RJ]

Bob's World posted

I believe that the statistic is that if a soldier survives his first 30 days in combat, he is likely to survive his tour. Or said another way, those first 30 days are a bitch. The unit my uncle was in probably turned over in the neighborhood of 300-400% casualties each major operation it went in on. He said he got to where he could just look at the new guys and predict who wasn't going to make it, and that he avoided them in general as it was just too hard actually "knowing" so many people and having them die on you.

What you said your Uncle said was typical of units in Vietnam 20 years later. FNG's that survived the first fire fight in good shape were included into the ranks and taught whatever was available or needed to survive. Those that didn't respond well after the first go round, usually didn't make it through their first month in the bush.

Again, not wanting to wave the Marine Corps Banner, but a lot of guys who I trained with were from NY City, South Boston and South Philly and assorted mid west cities like Chicago, St. Louis and Minneapolis.

The boys from the south were more familiar with the woods, bush or swamp, but after 5 or 6 months in a Marine Squad everyone in the squad was the same and in tune to night sounds and were suffiecently aware of what was going on. There were, of course shooters who took to the drill instinctively. The best point man I ever worked with was a Boston Southy named Breshahan. A tough, city boy who could move thru the bush without a sound.

Stealth can be taught and once aquired, never forgotten. I grew up in New York City, and my speciality after a couple of years in an infantry platoon was slipping up on my friends and scaring the crap out of them.

One of the kids in my squad was a stocky, fireplug of a man who would go on night patrols with out his boots on. He was from way back and beyond South Dakota. A small town guy who was beyond good in the woods.

Some people take to it naturally and others after a lot of practice.

When you are learning something that will keep you alive, the learning curve is high. It all comes back to leadership and training. When it isn't available, the lack of it will cost lives.

Country boys need to learn skills just like city boys. Rabbits and pheasants wont kill you, so just hunting will not make you a superior infantryman.

One of the drills we used to practice was taking out bridge guards with knife or wire from both ends of a bridge at the same time. More often than not we pulled it off.

The key was getting in place and then waiting for the No. 1 killer to make his move and distract the No. 2 guard long enough to let you taked him down. The guards knew we might be coming. Sometimes it took 3 or 4 hours to set them up. Everybody loses focus after awhile.

2 to 5 seconds after the slight commotion at the other end of the bridge got No. 2 guards attention was usually enough to put both guards down.

Practice does make perfect. In the drill we used tent pegs and clothes line.

Swift, Silent, Deadly isn't just a motto, ya know! Various platoons in the 6th and 8th Marines were not our friend.

2nd Recon 60 - 61 after M/3/5 56 - 61

[William F. Owen]

So the system weight of such MGs should include one semi-permanently attached and easily refillable belt container (eg: MG3), or the weight of several quick attach/detach belt containers (eg: Minimi).

In my platoon(s) we just took a 58-Pattern Water bottle pouch, cut the top off and wired it the end of the feed tray on the GPMG. It carried 50 rounds. Everyone in the section was told to break belt belts into 50 round lengths.
The purpose built link containers, were heavy, noisy, unreliable and never used.

I guess we can factor in such weights, but they seem very marginal. I have 100-round Minimi link bag in the attic, so I guess I'll go weigh it!

[Kiwigrunt]

The purpose built link containers, were heavy, noisy, unreliable and never used.

I assume they are the metal ones you are referring to. Some nations, including Israel, have used a canvas 50 rnd bag, as pictured. I believe the US currently use a variation of this. I imagine that we will again be looking at something that weighs over half a kilo. Then again, with regards to Jcustis' remark about ergonomics (although he referred to the 100 rnd pouch under the Minimi) and Ken's reminders against dirt, it is IMO well worth the extra weight.

[William F. Owen]

I assume they are the metal ones you are referring to. Some nations, including Israel, have used a canvas 50 rnd bag, as pictured. I believe the US currently use a variation of this. I imagine that we will again be looking at something that weighs over half a kilo. Then again, with regards to Jcustis' remark about ergonomics (although he referred to the 100 rnd pouch under the Minimi) and Ken's reminders against dirt, it is IMO well worth the extra weight.

All sounds good. I consider some sort of carrier essential. The beauty of the water bottle pouch, was that is was very easy for the No.2 on the gun to reload.

I'd be amazed if they weighed as much a 500 grams, but I've been wrong before

[jcustis]

Thje Marine Corps Times is reporting in the latest edition that the IAR selection will be announced in Sept.

Betcha it will be one of the two Colts, although I don't think that prediction is a big stretch.

[William F. Owen]

Betcha it will be one of the two Colts, although I don't think that prediction is a big stretch.

I thought the Ultimax Mk5 was still in the running?

[Kiwigrunt]

I thought the Ultimax Mk5 was still in the running?

There are only four in the running, two from Colt, one HK and one FN.

The USMC are also putting scopes on their SAWs

[RJ]

Remington just came out with a stubby .30 cal. hunting round for the AR-15.

The 30 AR upper mates perfectly with a .223/5.56mm lower. The round is the same over all length as the .223/5.56mm round. There are 750,000 civilian AR-15's in the hands of American shooters. The .30 AR has the exact same ballistics as the 300 Savage deer cartridge. The 30 AR launches a 125-grain bullet at 2800 fps from a 22-inch barrel.

This cartridge and the conversion engineered by DPMS could have several military applications. Especially in longer range accuracy and more brutal takedown power.

See the August 2009 Outdoor Life magazine article. It has a picture of the rifle on the cover, with the comment "Remington's new R-15 in .30 AR shot a 1.7-inch 20 shot group." Food for thought.

If my mind isn't blurring, 2,800 fps is what the standard .30 cal. ball ammo used in the M-1 Grand was rated at. Remington is producing two 125-grain bullets for it and FMJ is putting out a 123-grain practice round.

The four new AR's in the Marine Corps selection process now need to be rugged and easily maintained in extreme conditions. Heat, sand, Ice and snow, Rain and mud.

I'm looking forward to the results and the comparison write ups.

[jcustis]

There are only four in the running, two from Colt, one HK and one FN.

The USMC are also putting scopes on their SAWs

I really wish we weren't putting optics on them. we could use that $33mil for so much more, like a good spares package for the new IAR, pruchasing new mockups and software modules for our ISMT marksmanship systems, and on and on.

[Kiwigrunt]

I really wish we weren't putting optics on them. we could use that $33mil for so much more, like a good spares package for the new IAR, pruchasing new mockups and software modules for our ISMT marksmanship systems, and on and on.

It would appear to me to be a good idea, what makes you think otherwise? (And the fact that some 30 % of the SAWs will be retired with the introduction of the IAR is probably not much of an issue as I’m sure the sights can be transferred.)
The Australians started putting scopes (1.5 X, as Steyr) on theirs quite some time ago. We never did and I was led to believe that the reason was that the gun is an area weapon and ‘needs’ to be used with an observer to correct the fire. Hmmmm, I’ve never quite understood that approach. I should think that adding a descent optic would allow the gunner, at least to an extent, to better observe and adjust his own fire. Especially for the SAW, which is more of a one-man weapon anyway.

I do wonder though, certainly with the current love-affair with the short-barrelled versions, if a red-dot sight might not be more useful (I realize that will not aid observing and adjusting fire). The UK see this weapon as having a max. effective range of 300, so relatively sort range, medium at best.
So, reserve magnifying scopes for the full-barrelled versions and for the gpmg’s.

The Dutch however have 6X scopes on their short-barrelled Minimi’s. Now that does seem a bit optimistic. Then again, they claim an effective range of 800.
For what its worth, they’ve not had them ten years and are already needing to replace 2000 of them as they are worn out. Now they do appear to be abusing them a bit with excessive rates of fire, but hey, their MAG 58’s are still going strong. Maybe Ken and others are on to something here…….

[jcustis]

Original USMC SAWs had an advertised max-effective range of 1,000m, without any optics. The ground truth was something a lot less than that, partly because we aren't all that good when it comes to training, but I'm not a big fan of magnified optics on basic-issue weapons in the first place.

I assisted a Reserve company with outfitting its para-SAW models with Eotech red dots that proved to be devastating at 75-150m. I didn't get feedback on longer range shooting, but I think we've regressed back from that capability with the shorter weapons anyway. I firmly believe that a SAW is best used as an area weapon, and in that capacity, scopes can be a funny thing, wherein the shooter loses wide-field of view ability and tends to get sucked into the scope at the detriment of rapid target aquisition across the sector of fire.

If we are going to go toward an IAR, then we need to resource it full bore, all out. Field it to infantry, LAR, and Recon battalions, and leave the rest of the SAWs alone. And heck, if we are going after the IAR because of mobility and weigt issues, why in the hell would we add any weight to the SAW? That issue is, after all, seven years old by now.

[Ken White]

I firmly believe that a SAW is best used as an area weapon, and in that capacity, scopes can be a funny thing, wherein the shooter loses wide-field of view ability and tends to get sucked into the scope at the detriment of rapid target aquisition across the sector of fire.

ALL belt fed weapons are area weapons; their automatic fire and construction make them inherently inaccurate. They are marginal as suppression tools (other than the noise and the appearance of doing something) and are best at what they were designed for -- a large volume of defensive fire in a grazing or plunging mode, range dependent.

They can be applied to other tasks but are not optimum for most of them. When that failing is judged in relation to their weight, complexity and ammunition consumption (and thus logistic burden), they aren't nearly as valuable as many think...

[jcustis]

I got back to thinking about the Infantry Automatic Rifle concept and checked out several blog, industry, and forum pages discussing and critiquing the project.

We will be left with utilizing 30-round magazines only with any of the four contenders. It takes seven magazines to equal the capacity of one former 200-rd SAW drum, and SAW gunners can run a loadout anywhere from 200 to 600 rounds.

What I have not heard discussion of is the concept of employment for IAR-equipped gunners. It's obvious that we are past the point of the SAW vs. IAR debate, so what combat load should these IAR gunners carry? Is comparing 200 rounds in a SAW to 186 rounds in an IAR (accounting for -2 rds per GI-issue magazine for better feeding) a case of comparing apples and oranges, because the IAR is going to offer more precision and therefore a better hit-to-round fired-ration? I dunno.

[Kiwigrunt]

I do agree that beltfeds are typically area weapons, I just would have thought that giving them greater accuracy potential with a scope might help to cut ammo wastage down a bit and allow them to be used more efficiently when they are not required to be used for area support (so situations where they are used more in the AR or even IW role). Which, I imagine, would happen quite a lot given that there is 1 in every 4-man team (SAW anyway). All this under the ‘if we have them here anyway’ banner. Which of course goes a long way to supporting Ken’s standpoint.

We will be left with utilizing 30-round magazines only with any of the four contenders. It takes seven magazines to equal the capacity of one former 200-rd SAW drum, and SAW gunners can run a loadout anywhere from 200 to 600 rounds.

What I have not heard discussion of is the concept of employment for IAR-equipped gunners. It's obvious that we are past the point of the SAW vs. IAR debate, so what combat load should these IAR gunners carry? Is comparing 200 rounds in a SAW to 186 rounds in an IAR (accounting for -2 rds per GI-issue magazine for better feeding) a case of comparing apples and oranges, because the IAR is going to offer more precision and therefore a better hit-to-round fired-ration? I dunno.

Hmmm, I think you touched on a number of points there.
First of all, we are indeed not comparing apples with oranges because an AR is not an MG, as J. Eby reiterates in his article:

The automatic rifle is a small arm intended for short-term automatic fire missions against point targets. It is incapable of sustained automatic fire due to the lack of a quick-change barrel, which in turn, causes overheating, and the removal of the weapon from serviceable status. The AR is also fed from a detachable box magazine, not a belt, as is a true machine gun. Automatic rifles are NOT machine guns!

So I think you’re right. With a lower rate of fire and increased accuracy, you should not need the same 600 rnds that you would carry for the SAW. But I do think you would need to carry more than front-line for an IW as it is an automatic weapon and it will be used as such. Maybe some 300 to 400?
That would still give a very noticeable overall weight reduction (including weapon weight). But this would probably just have to be learnt and adjusted with experience.

Wilf, do you know what the Brits carried for their LSW before the Minimi came in?

Just out of interest Jcustis, you said in an earlier post that you use Magpull’s plastic mags. Do you under-load them as well? Or do they take 30 rnds without complaining?


More from Eby:

2/7 believes that the next step in increasing the lethality of the rifle squad does not consist of replacing the M249 SAW. Rather, squad lethality, both quantitatively and qualitatively, can be greatly increased in two very cost-effective ways. First, the M249 SAW should be used in the LMG role for which it was designed, not the ad hoc AR role for which it was purchased. Second, to ensure that each rifle FT possesses the automatic weapon necessary for the close combat fight, a true AR should be acquired.

This then raises another question. How many SAWs (as MGs) are still going to be used at squad level (to dilute the weight-gain of introducing an AR)? Another suggested option was to gather up to 9 SAWs into one support squad. That would seem to me to be a ‘solution’ to justify the new AR and keeping the SAW as well, which, at platoon level may well give an overall weight increase. Also, if you start using a 5.56 MG as fire support from squad to squad (effectively at platoon level), as opposed to within the squad, then the deficiencies of the calibre may well become more of an issue. That squad might be better off with 2 or 3 M240s, and/or some HE projection, me thinks.

So in my mind, I could only ever see an AR as replacing the SAW, not adding to it. That’s where the Brits are now, only they got there from the opposite direction. They now have one SAW and one LSW/AR (now disguised as DMR) per fireteam.
I fear also that if a number of SAWs will be kept within the platoon (even if on a golfbag basis) then they will eventually work their way down again to fireteam level.

It's really starting to look like we're getting far too many different toys to play with, just not necessarily the right ones. And we are looking to justify all of them

[jcustis]

Just out of interest Jcustis, you said in an earlier post that you use Magpull’s plastic mags. Do you under-load them as well? Or do they take 30 rnds without complaining?

Kiwi,

I keep them topped off minus the 2 rds more out of habit I suppose than anything else, although Magpul advertises a true 30-rd capability. I have tried inserting a 30-rounder in under a closed bolt, and I haven't noticed the resistance found when trying to do it with GI-issued mags.

My current mags are a personal purchase to transition to last deploy's GI mags that I modified with Magpul sef-leveling followers, which are the heat IMO. Magpul makes really reliable, sturdy stuff.