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Thread: The Men Who Stare at Goats

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    Council Member Dr. C's Avatar
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    Default The Men Who Stare at Goats

    Reading The Men Who Stare at Goats (2004) by Jon Ronson in anticipation of the film opening November 6, starring George Clooney, Ewan McGregor, Jeff Bridges, and Kevin Spacey. It's supposed to be based on a true story about a reporter's search to learn more about the U.S. Army's First Earth Battalion, SF guys who could stare at goats and walk through walls. I think I'm the first person to post in this thread that I'm reading the book. Anyone else reading it and taking it seriously? Offended by it? Entertained?
    Michele Costanza, Ph.D., CKM/CKEE (Contractor)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. C View Post
    Reading The Men Who Stare at Goats (2004) by Jon Ronson in anticipation of the film opening November 6, starring George Clooney, Ewan McGregor, Jeff Bridges, and Kevin Spacey. It's supposed to be based on a true story about a reporter's search to learn more about the U.S. Army's First Earth Battalion, SF guys who could stare at goats and walk through walls. I think I'm the first person to post in this thread that I'm reading the book. Anyone else reading it and taking it seriously? Offended by it? Entertained?
    I read the book a couple of years ago. I found it entertaining, but if any part of it is true, God help us.

    One thing that I found interesting is that there's a person in there called Mr. B, wh allegedly had all sorts of psychic powers. It's pretty obvious who Mr. B is, so I wonder why he didn't simply use the man's name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oblong View Post
    I read the book a couple of years ago. I found it entertaining, but if any part of it is true, God help us.

    One thing that I found interesting is that there's a person in there called Mr. B, wh allegedly had all sorts of psychic powers. It's pretty obvious who Mr. B is, so I wonder why he didn't simply use the man's name.
    Not so obvious to me, so who is Mr. B?
    Michele Costanza, Ph.D., CKM/CKEE (Contractor)

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    The information he includes about Mr. B indicates he's talking about a Delta Force member convicted of several rapes in the late 1980s. Again, he never actually names him. But unless there are multiple serial rapists who fit that description, the name is pretty easy to find.
    Last edited by oblong; 11-03-2009 at 02:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oblong View Post
    The information he includes about Mr. B indicates he's talking about a Delta Force member convicted of several rapes in the late 1980s. Again, he never actually names him. But unless there are multiple people who fit that description, the name is pretty easy to find.
    Is there anything left true in this world? I haven't read the book, but I was looking forward to the movie.

    Mike

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    I hesitated before posting this because I know the author is controversial among other former Delta members and because, well, the piece is sure to anger people, but it does tell you a little a bit about the man whose biography seems to match some of the details of Ronson's Mr. B.

    http://freedomroad.org/content/view/163/69/lang,en/

    Ronson never explicitly says who Mr. B is, but he gives enough information to lead those familiar with this case to believe it's the same person.

    He also never directly claims that Mr. B can make himself invisible or that the government lets him out of prison to perform secret missions. He simply says soldiers have told him those things.
    Last edited by oblong; 11-03-2009 at 02:45 AM.

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    I was very surprised that he made it almost to the end of the essay before mentioning Marx.

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    Not read the book, but I suspect BS. When I was at the LRRP School in 88 I met an old time SF Team guy who had done some weird experimental training back in the late 70's early 80's. Some of it was all pretty banal - sleep deprivation, meditation versus low temperatures etc. Bottom line, only a small number of folks saw benefit. It couldn't be taught, and it was no where near an exact science, so great if your a rich middle aged divorcee from up-state NY, but BS for an Army. I wait to be convinced!
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    I don't know which part of the book worries me most. The claim that the Army may use a serial rapist capable of becoming invisible for secret missions. Or the claim that the Army had a major general so convinced that he could walk through walls that tried, and failed, repeatedly to do so. I know which one I find more believable.

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    There is another person mentioned in Ronson's book named Guy Savelli, who actually laid claim to the "death stare" ability that the title of the film is derived from. He is a martial arts instructor in Ohio, who claims to have been trained by an Indonesian master.

    As a prospective student once long ago, Savelli showed me video of Special Forces soldiers using his techniques and documentation carried out by a UNC researcher of the effects of his "death stare" on the goats who were used by SF medics for training. All I seem to remember is that Savelli was proud in the changes of the heart rates in the goats (as documented) and he never claimed to have brought one down.

    There was also quite a bit of documentation showing Savelli's relationship with Colonel Nick Rowe, former POW and founder of the SF's SERE school. (Rowe was murdered in the Philippines in 1989). According to Savelli, Rowe somehow found him and was so impressed with Savelli's brand of martial arts (according to Savelli, his martial arts techniques were the closest thing that Rowe had seen to what his Vietnamese captors had practiced) that he brought him down to Fort Bragg to train SF personnel.

    There were several members of the local Ohio Special Forces Association (Chapter 45 The Smoking Gun, if I recall) who used to take classes with Savelli. There were plenty of photos around his studio of Savelli at Ft. Bragg showing SF people his technique....and video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zKGx-HWIvU

    A SF Vietnam vet once told me that Savelli had inflated his claims about his connections with the SF Community and the SERE school. The Special Forces eventually gave Savelli a "request" to cease and desist promoting himself in that manner.
    Last edited by Corto; 11-03-2009 at 10:57 AM.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corto View Post
    As a prospective student once long ago, Savelli showed me video of Special Forces soldiers using his techniques and documentation carried out by a UNC researcher of the effects of his "death stare" on the goats who were used by SF medics for training. All I seem to remember is that Savelli was proud in the changes of the heart rates in the goats (as documented) and he never claimed to have brought one down.
    So staring at a goat, in a intense fashion, can distress the goat to the degree where it's heart rate increases? I think I can do that.

    Alternatively, if the heart rate decreases perhaps the goat was merely getting bored!!
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corto View Post
    There is another person mentioned in Ronson's book named Guy Savelli, who actually laid claim to the "death stare" ability that the title of the film is derived from. He is a martial arts instructor in Ohio, who claims to have been trained by an Indonesian master.

    As a prospective student once long ago, Savelli showed me video of Special Forces soldiers using his techniques and documentation carried out by a UNC researcher of the effects of his "death stare" on the goats who were used by SF medics for training. All I seem to remember is that Savelli was proud in the changes of the heart rates in the goats (as documented) and he never claimed to have brought one down.

    There was also quite a bit of documentation showing Savelli's relationship with Colonel Nick Rowe, former POW and founder of the SF's SERE school. (Rowe was murdered in the Philippines in 1989). According to Savelli, Rowe somehow found him and was so impressed with Savelli's brand of martial arts (according to Savelli, his martial arts techniques were the closest thing that Rowe had seen to what his Vietnamese captors had practiced) that he brought him down to Fort Bragg to train SF personnel.

    There were several members of the local Ohio Special Forces Association (Chapter 45 The Smoking Gun, if I recall) who used to take classes with Savelli. There were plenty of photos around his studio of Savelli at Ft. Bragg showing SF people his technique....and video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zKGx-HWIvU

    A SF Vietnam vet once told me that Savelli had inflated his claims about his connections with the SF Community and the SERE school. The Special Forces eventually gave Savelli a "request" to cease and desist promoting himself in that manner.
    According to the book, as a test of his powers, 30 numbered goats were led into a room and Savelli was supposed to focus on one of them, say No. 16. Ronson says one of the goats did fall over and die, but it wasn't the one Savelli was staring at. He says that Savelli also accidentally killed his pet hamster by staring at it too long.

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    Wink The BBC documentary on Youtube

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RraL...layer_embedded

    That's the first ten minutes of episode one. You'll find the remander linked on the right side of the page if you'd like to see the whole think, including intervieweds with some of the folks mentioned above.

    A Bush-bashing angle in the documentary, does that appear in the book, too? Always good for a few more sales/viewers back in 2004-2008.

    Hopefully Clooney & Co stick with the humor angle per the tralers.

    Speaking of trailers, here's Green Zone, the Hollywood version of Imperial Life in the Emerald City, coming soon to a theater near you.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F20ov...layer_embedded

    (apologiez for any typos above, I'm using mentl powers to enter this post insted of keybrd. Stil lernang.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    So staring at a goat, in a intense fashion, can distress the goat to the degree where it's heart rate increases? I think I can do that.
    I know a lot of folks in Slapout that could do that....how much you get paid for that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    I know a lot of folks in Slapout that could do that....how much you get paid for that?
    I'm only half-joking when I suggest that we should put together a team of country good ole boys to go after Bin Ladin.

    Training would be easy. The boys from my home already know the hills. I'd just have to explain that in this part of the woods, we do lamb roasts instead of pig pickens.

    And, I'd have to find a way to keep them off the heroin . They can keep the goats.

    Mike

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    I'm only half-joking when I suggest that we should put together a team of country good ole boys to go after Bin Ladin.
    It don't worry me none, I reckon.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    So staring at a goat, in a intense fashion, can distress the goat to the degree where it's heart rate increases? I think I can do that.

    Alternatively, if the heart rate decreases perhaps the goat was merely getting bored!!
    Savelli had a stare that would probably make Rasputin whimper.
    He had a whole strange para-psychological/spiritual methodology behind the "Death Stare" that if I recall correctly could only be utilized with a strong moral rationale. This was many, many years ago, so my memory may be faulty. He was a scary guy. I'm sure he's having conniptions over this movie.
    Last edited by Corto; 11-03-2009 at 06:29 PM.

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    Default Related discussion ....

    is in the MindWar thread here at SWC from Jan 2009.

    There is also an on-going "discourse" at Professional Soldiers, involving a former ASA guy and the SF folks there (arising out of the ASA guy's comments to the media re: the movie and that he was in Special Forces). That led me to a Remote Viewing webpage (Mr Wheaton's), which defines that as:

    Remote Viewing is the trained ability to acquire accurate direct knowledge not available to the ordinary physical senses, of things and events or 'targets' distant in time or space, in the past, present, or future.

    Originally developed for and utilized by The Department Of Defense for intelligence collection purposes with the famed 'Stargate' project, it has a long history (30+ years) as an intelligence gathering tool.
    Since I am lucky or unlucky enough to have an ASA vet in house (no, he does not claim to have been in Special Forces), I asked him what he thought of "Remote Viewing" (as viewed by Mr Wheaton et al). "You gotta be kidding."

    Now, I have to get back to concentrating on the next judge I want to influence - already know what he thinks he wants to decide.

    Cheers

    Mike

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    Default The difference being, of course....

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    So staring at a goat, in a intense fashion, can distress the goat to the degree where it's heart rate increases? I think I can do that.

    Alternatively, if the heart rate decreases perhaps the goat was merely getting bored!!
    ..that us SF guys make a goat nervous by staring into its eyes....never could get the dang Brits to stop making them nervous by the way they stared at the other end!


    (Movie sounds enjoyable, but I doubt it exposes any deep national security secrets to public review.)
    Robert C. Jones
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    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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    Default First Earth Battalion still active???

    Army apologizes for Ryan Seacrest stalker


    Ryan Seacrest may be back to tweeting about Rihanna songs and preparing for the next season of American Idol, but his bizarre stalker ordeal just took a new twist.

    Reports reveal that Chidi Uzomah Jr., 25, who is in police custody under suspicion of stalking Seacrest, is a sergeant with the Army Reserves under the 426th Civil Affairs Battalion a part of the Army's special forces.

    Uzomah, who entered the E! offices on Friday armed with a knife to find Seacrest, served in the Army National Guard from 2005 to 2009 before being honorably discharged. Soon after, he transferred to the Army Reserve. Army spokesman Lt. Col. Nathan Banks told TMZ, "We apologize to Ryan Seacrest. Pending the outcome of the local investigation, the Army will decide what further action to take. We take all matters of our personnel seriously."

    Uzomah is already on probation following a September incident in which he attacked one of Seacrest's bodyguards after being refused a meeting with the radio/TV host. He faces a three-year restraining order, as well as possible Army discipline.

    In justifying the restraining order to the court, Seacrest declared, "His aggressive and violent efforts to come into physical contact with me are extremely frightening to me. They have jeopardized not only my personal safety but also the safety and well-being of those around me."

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