Hand-to-hand in combat

**Ken White** · 01-24-2008

had at least minor hand to hand tussles on occasion. It's rarely the big pitched battle ala the movies, just a minor scuffle here and there. Some guys may have put in a couple of tours and never have seen an incidence of it while another guy might have personally been in three or four scuffles. Occasionally it got up to a whole platoon, less often to a company but it happened.

There were even more on a per capita basis in Korea, a whole lot more. Mostly in the early days due to the Chinese tactic of infiltrating and swarming (with PpSh 41 / 43s they didn't have a lot of choice).

Wilf needs to recall Bill Speakman's VC. And the Gloucesters...

Later, after the static battle developed, it was a battle of back and forth attacks on fortified positions, trenches breed hand to hand.

Goes with the territory.

**Presley Cannady** · 01-28-2008

Once again, this is amazing history guys. I've started to pile through a lot of the recommended literature, but I should ask again. Does anyone know of any quantitative discussion of the role of hand-to-hand in the age of firearms? Btw, Ken and Norfolk, I'd greatly appreciate any further directions you might have for digging up the Chinese H2H experience in World War II and Korea.

**Norfolk** · 01-28-2008

Originally Posted by Presley Cannady

Once again, this is amazing history guys. I've started to pile through a lot of the recommended literature, but I should ask again. Does anyone know of any quantitative discussion of the role of hand-to-hand in the age of firearms? Btw, Ken and Norfolk, I'd greatly appreciate any further directions you might have for digging up the Chinese H2H experience in World War II and Korea.

Presley, the references that were given for Fairbairn and Sykes (and O' Neil as well) are a great place to start, given that both learned their craft in the Shanghai Municipal Police - and of course Applegate partnered with Fairbairn. These will give a sense of what Chinese H2H is about.

The official system of H2H in China is called Sanda (for a while it was called Sanshou); it is a simplified form of Zhongguo wushu, dispensing with the ritual and art typical of most other styles of "Kung-Fu" in favour of concentration on H2H. It is the standard H2H system of both the PLA and the ROC Armed Forces.

For finding out about Chinese H2H experience in WWII and Korea, you'll probably need to learn Chinese.

**Presley Cannady** · 01-28-2008

Originally Posted by Norfolk

Presley, the references that were given for Fairbairn and Sykes (and O' Neil as well) are a great place to start, given that both learned their craft in the Shanghai Municipal Police - and of course Applegate partnered with Fairbairn. These will give a sense of what Chinese H2H is about.

Yes, I'm still immersed in Gutterfighting, although probably at the risk of sidetracking from my objective. I'd come across Defendu in martial arts seminars some time ago, but I didn't figure it to have such an...elaborate history. Still, I'm looking for material more on the lines of say the materials raised in the discussions on rifle squad composition [1, 2] (especially the Melody and Karcher papers.

The official system of H2H in China is called Sanda (for a while it was called Sanshou); it is a simplified form of Zhongguo wushu, dispensing with the ritual and art typical of most other styles of "Kung-Fu" in favour of concentration on H2H. It is the standard H2H system of both the PLA and the ROC Armed Forces.

I imagine long blades and other weapons aside from clubs and staffs have been dropped from the curriculum as well, or at least I haven't heard of it. Then again, the English language literature on wushu practice in modern PRC and ROC military and law enforcement is very limited.

For finding out about Chinese H2H experience in WWII and Korea, you'll probably need to learn Chinese.

That's probably the case. The Japanese military experience with kenjutsu is also lacks much in the way of English scholarship, in fact most of the English literature is focused on judo and jujutsu in particular and is almost entirely instructional. I just hope that a possibly amazing period in East Asian military history is preserved in Chinese and Japanese.

**Norfolk** · 01-29-2008

Originally Posted by Presley Cannady

Still, I'm looking for material more on the lines of say the materials raised in the discussions on rifle squad composition [1, 2] (especially the Melody and Karcher papers.

Rifleman and slapout posted links to quite a few such materials on the Rifle Squad and other associated threads. There are also some under the heading of "Selected Sources" at the bottom of several "Infantry Section" articles here.