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Thread: Hand-to-hand in combat

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norfolk View Post
    But you need to spend more time on weapons handling than H2H, or you just might end up like this
    Or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    I believe most of the H2H incidents in Vietnam involved Special Forces. For example, I believe MSG Roy Benavidez' MOH citation mentions that he killed an assailant in H2H and there were other times when border camps and recon teams were being overrun that it came down to H2H.
    Interesting you should mention this. When I interviewed some 14 SOG 1-0s none of them could ever remember anyone being involved in true Hand-to-hand combat other than Benavidez. The actual question i asked was could they remember any member of a Recon Team killing the enemy with a knife.

    The only other exception often mentioned was the 1968 sapper attack on the CCN FOB at Da Nang.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    Oooh! But what a man; he just kept on truckin', finished the lesson, and then grabbed the keys to the bathroom and mosied on out the door to patch things up.

    Good thing that CAR-15 wasn't loaded though when someone went to show it off.

  4. #44
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    I don't think that H2H was by any means common for SF, Wilf, only that it happened and probably a little more frequently than in conventional infantry units. I found a few more examples. Here's two that led to the MOH being awarded:

    ".....Sgt. Yntema stood his ground, using his rifle as a club to fight the approximately 15 Viet Cong attempting his capture." - from the Medal of Honor Citation for Gordon D. Yntema

    "M/Sgt. Hosking immediately leaped upon the Viet Cong's back. With utter disregard for his personal safety, he grasped the Viet Cong in a "Bear Hug" forcing the grenade against the enemy soldier's chest. He then wrestled the Viet Cong to the ground and covered the enemy's body with his body until the grenade detonated." - from the Medal of Honor Citation for Charles E. Hosking

    And some quotes from the fall of the SF "A" camp in the A Shau Valley:

    "Fighting hand-to-hand, the defenders had pulled back into the northern corner of the triangular fort." - Time

    "Bitter hand-to-hand fighting continued for almost 3 hours until those friendly forces on the east wall were isolated from the rest of the camp....." - 5th Special Forces Group after action report.

    That's a few that it was easy to find some documentation for. We don't know what happened to some of the MIAs - like "Mad Dog" Shriver, etc. - but it wouldn't be improbale that at least some of them went down in H2H fighting also.
    Last edited by Rifleman; 01-24-2008 at 05:00 AM.
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  5. #45
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Most infantry units in Viet Nam

    had at least minor hand to hand tussles on occasion. It's rarely the big pitched battle ala the movies, just a minor scuffle here and there. Some guys may have put in a couple of tours and never have seen an incidence of it while another guy might have personally been in three or four scuffles. Occasionally it got up to a whole platoon, less often to a company but it happened.

    There were even more on a per capita basis in Korea, a whole lot more. Mostly in the early days due to the Chinese tactic of infiltrating and swarming (with PpSh 41 / 43s they didn't have a lot of choice).

    Wilf needs to recall Bill Speakman's VC. And the Gloucesters...

    Later, after the static battle developed, it was a battle of back and forth attacks on fortified positions, trenches breed hand to hand.

    Goes with the territory.

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    Once again, this is amazing history guys. I've started to pile through a lot of the recommended literature, but I should ask again. Does anyone know of any quantitative discussion of the role of hand-to-hand in the age of firearms? Btw, Ken and Norfolk, I'd greatly appreciate any further directions you might have for digging up the Chinese H2H experience in World War II and Korea.
    PH Cannady
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    Quote Originally Posted by Presley Cannady View Post
    Once again, this is amazing history guys. I've started to pile through a lot of the recommended literature, but I should ask again. Does anyone know of any quantitative discussion of the role of hand-to-hand in the age of firearms? Btw, Ken and Norfolk, I'd greatly appreciate any further directions you might have for digging up the Chinese H2H experience in World War II and Korea.
    Presley, the references that were given for Fairbairn and Sykes (and O' Neil as well) are a great place to start, given that both learned their craft in the Shanghai Municipal Police - and of course Applegate partnered with Fairbairn. These will give a sense of what Chinese H2H is about.

    The official system of H2H in China is called Sanda (for a while it was called Sanshou); it is a simplified form of Zhongguo wushu, dispensing with the ritual and art typical of most other styles of "Kung-Fu" in favour of concentration on H2H. It is the standard H2H system of both the PLA and the ROC Armed Forces.

    For finding out about Chinese H2H experience in WWII and Korea, you'll probably need to learn Chinese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norfolk View Post
    Presley, the references that were given for Fairbairn and Sykes (and O' Neil as well) are a great place to start, given that both learned their craft in the Shanghai Municipal Police - and of course Applegate partnered with Fairbairn. These will give a sense of what Chinese H2H is about.
    Yes, I'm still immersed in Gutterfighting, although probably at the risk of sidetracking from my objective. I'd come across Defendu in martial arts seminars some time ago, but I didn't figure it to have such an...elaborate history. Still, I'm looking for material more on the lines of say the materials raised in the discussions on rifle squad composition [1, 2] (especially the Melody and Karcher papers.

    The official system of H2H in China is called Sanda (for a while it was called Sanshou); it is a simplified form of Zhongguo wushu, dispensing with the ritual and art typical of most other styles of "Kung-Fu" in favour of concentration on H2H. It is the standard H2H system of both the PLA and the ROC Armed Forces.
    I imagine long blades and other weapons aside from clubs and staffs have been dropped from the curriculum as well, or at least I haven't heard of it. Then again, the English language literature on wushu practice in modern PRC and ROC military and law enforcement is very limited.

    For finding out about Chinese H2H experience in WWII and Korea, you'll probably need to learn Chinese.
    That's probably the case. The Japanese military experience with kenjutsu is also lacks much in the way of English scholarship, in fact most of the English literature is focused on judo and jujutsu in particular and is almost entirely instructional. I just hope that a possibly amazing period in East Asian military history is preserved in Chinese and Japanese.
    PH Cannady
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    Quote Originally Posted by Presley Cannady View Post
    Still, I'm looking for material more on the lines of say the materials raised in the discussions on rifle squad composition [1, 2] (especially the Melody and Karcher papers.
    Rifleman and slapout posted links to quite a few such materials on the Rifle Squad and other associated threads. There are also some under the heading of "Selected Sources" at the bottom of several "Infantry Section" articles here.

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Interesting picture you have there on your new blog Norfolk. Royal Marines on Mt. Harriett?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    Interesting picture you have there on your new blog Norfolk. Royal Marines on Mt. Harriett?
    Close jcustis; Scots Guards at Tumbledown Mountain (couldn't find a good one of the RM except for the Landing at Port San Carlos - and it wasn't the right colours - pity.)

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    I'm going to run a query at the Gray Research Center, but I do recall there being something on file in the archives about hand-2-hand in the Korean War context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    I'm going to run a query at the Gray Research Center, but I do recall there being something on file in the archives about hand-2-hand in the Korean War context.
    Jon, I just noticed this blog on your post and took a look - nice work - is it yours (inquiring minds want to know...)?

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norfolk View Post
    Jon, I just noticed this blog on your post and took a look - nice work - is it yours (inquiring minds want to know...)?
    Sure is. I updated my sig line to put it out there for the chance of wider distribution. The avatar pic was graciously provided by the SWC's own AdamL. I've got a long, long way to go on the project, but the blog helps to keep me on some sort of plan of attack and serves as a journal of sorts for actions to be accomplished.

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    Council Member sullygoarmy's Avatar
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    I'm a day late on this one but I'll throw a question out there regarding hand-to-hand. The Army's new combatives training emphasizes going to the ground with your opponent. While I find this to be an interesting exercise in PT gear on a matted gym floor, I wonder why we are teaching the techniques when, in reality, most of the hand-to-hand combat actions are going to take place with a soldier wearing full body armor, helmet and assorted other gear to weigh him down. So you want me to train soldiers to go to the ground with their opponent when, in reality, your opponent most likely will have little to no extra weight on his person, and quite capable of maneuvering away from our poor, heavily weighed down turtle?

    Am I off base here or is the purpose of this new combatives program to teach our soldiers no kidding, useful hand-to-hand skills or to make them feel better about themselves and learn just enough to get their asses kicked in a bar fight?
    "But the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet withstanding, go out to meet it."

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Mostly the latter

    Quote Originally Posted by sullygoarmy View Post
    ...
    Am I off base here or is the purpose of this new combatives program to teach our soldiers no kidding, useful hand-to-hand skills or to make them feel better about themselves and learn just enough to get their asses kicked in a bar fight?
    -- and to get kids who haven't played team sports or had much physical contact to learn a sprain, a cut lip or a bloody nose won't kill you.

    Re: your first paragraph above, I may have been misinformed but I thought that grappling / Brazilian judo bit was just introductory and that later follow on training got them out of the "go to ground" mode. I sure hope so; with or without looking like a Ninja Turtle, the ground is the last place you want to be in a serious fight...

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    Council Member sullygoarmy's Avatar
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    Good point Ken. It is amazing how many kids joining the military have never gotten into any sort of physical altercation. I'm a big believer in boxing and hand-to-hand training...enough to build your confidence that you can in fact, handle yourself and survive.
    "But the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet withstanding, go out to meet it."

    -Thucydides

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    Quote Originally Posted by sullygoarmy View Post
    Good point Ken. It is amazing how many kids joining the military have never gotten into any sort of physical altercation. I'm a big believer in boxing and hand-to-hand training...enough to build your confidence that you can in fact, handle yourself and survive.

    This is kind of a personal rant with me. Going to the ground was warned against in both Fairbarns and Applegates books some time ago. I never understood it myself...why would you want to be on the ground as a matter of choice??? especially since some of that stuff looks like it belongs in the don't ask don't tell part of the Army. I certainly never saw anything like that in Montgomery...the ones that were put on the ground tended to stay there for awhile and theyt didn't do any huggie buggie boo type moves either....more like Mike Tyson on acid.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norfolk View Post
    Close jcustis; Scots Guards at Tumbledown Mountain (couldn't find a good one of the RM except for the Landing at Port San Carlos - and it wasn't the right colours - pity.)
    This is exactly what I'm talking about. Read "Not mentioned in Dispatches" which shows that the "H2H" at Goose Green did not occur in the way many said it did. The UK has constantly and deliberately failed to differentiate between killing with or using a bayonet, and Fighting using a bayonet. IT's NOT the same thing.

    There is a least one good account from WW1 where a Sgt in the Black Watch said the best thing about a bayonet was it allowed you to kill the German wounded, undetected and thus you did not have to treat them!
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Some of you will remember awhile back about a 72 year old Marine that beats up a pick pocket. Here are the actual security tapes of the incident from several different views. Some hand strikes, a couple of elbows and looks like he slipped a good knee strike in there.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mafN9...eature=related

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