Hand-to-hand in combat

[William F. Owen]

The original H2H system of the WW2 taught by Fairbairn and Applegate was called Close Combat and started at handgun/sub machine gun range(point shooting) then to the Bayonet, then to the knife, then to the stick, and finally as a last resort H2H.

Thank you! This is precisely it! H2H is action of last resort (thus failure of other methods) or relevant by virtue of the level of force required (arrest/restraint).

Having just downloaded, printed and read the combatives manual, I think you could safely ignore 1/2 or more of the document and still retain what is useful.

[slapout9]

Hi Wilf, well the Air Force agrees with you. Over on Strategypage.com they just posted an article saying the Air Force just started teaching the Army combatives course at the officers training course at Maxwell,Al. they cut the Army course if half saying thats all they needed the students loved the course and were encouraged to continue training on their own time.

here is the link with pictures.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hti.../20080204.aspx

[William F. Owen]

Hi Wilf, well the Air Force agrees with you. x[/url]

Well that's not good! I think I may have to have a re-think!

[Norfolk]

Well that's not good! I think I may have to have a re-think!

Demand that at least 15 minutes of Unarmed Combat training is performed at each hole on each Base's Officer's Club golf course. That'll set 'em straight!

[FL-CRACKER]

Almost all good points. You have kinda covered why I spend so much time working on infantry doctrine, but we are still left with the elephant in the corner that cannot explain why Infantry does the things it does without explicit recognition of operational realities and human factor constraints. The UK infantry man is now more overloaded than at any time in history. Shows we don't know much more than we did in 1917.

I agree about mags. Mags aint the issue. It's all the other ammo natures.

Yes, Bayonets are good for crowd control, but what happens when you use them? You can't fix bayonets without being prepared to stick someone and do you want your men bayoneting civilians?

Bayonet as a good knife? Well I submit there are better tools to carry.

Sir,

Is that a knife or a bayonet in your avatar?

Respectfully,

FC

[William F. Owen]

Sir,

Is that a knife or a bayonet in your avatar?

Respectfully,

FC

It is an SA-80 Bayonet. My avatar is that of the UK Infantry Heretics "The Outsider Platoon". The Approved UK Infantry Emblem, is red with a bayonet pointing up!

[Presley Cannady]

One last question, is there much in the way of comparative literature looking at both contemporary H2H and pre-modern systems? As best as I can tell, combatives, defendu, defendo, etc., claim lineage with and critique very recent--in fact 19th and 20th century--schools of unarmed combat. But by the time they emerged the rifle and pistol were already pretty ubiquitous even in East Asia. By my count, the Sengoku period in Japanese history and transition from Ming to Qing dynasties in China are the most recent examples of martial arts playing a significant role on the battlefield.

[slapout9]

No this is some real H2H courtesy of the Green Berets.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRnra...eature=related

[kaur]

1 more link about Air Force training.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/0...tives_080128w/

[slapout9]

Wilf or Norfolk or anybody with some UK Army knowledge are there any UK Army H2H manuals that can be downloaded?

[Norfolk]

E-mail sent.

[Rifleman]

So you want hand to hand, huh? Here's a classic, sports fans.

It's a 180lbs Jack Dempsey taking on a 245lbs Jess Willard in Toledo, Ohio on July 4, 1919:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFHAFNTjcSE

You'll have to overlook (or mute) the Japanese commentary. I couldn't find a full length English version. It's still worth watching.

Hey? Did I catch a glimpse of you at ringside in that clip, Ken?

[Ken White]

due to my advanced age, I not attend the match. Might have been too much for the old heart to cope with the adrenalin rush...

[slapout9]

Check this out. This is a PPCT Brachial Stun. I first saw this over 10 years ago so the film quality is not that great but you get the point. When I saw this it was set the tune of the Curly Shuffle


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sam6v...eature=related

[Ron Humphrey]

Check this out. This is a PPCT Brachial Stun. I first saw this over 10 years ago so the film quality is not that great but you get the point. When I saw this it was set the tune of the Curly Shuffle


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sam6v...eature=related

The best part isn't even the hit itself but watching someone try to get their bearings back afterwards

[kaur]

This is more close to H2H concept. Genki Sudo vs Butterbean

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2SqI...eature=related

[slapout9]

Now this is some bayonet drill. They have MoJo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFcKS...eature=related

[Norfolk]

Much as I loathe dog-and-pony shows, I still have to admit that was very impressive, and those ROC Army boys sure had the drill down pat. Great find slap.