Then they become good criminals not bad criminals. Actually I don't see any grown up western democracy supporting any insurgency these days. Sure there was the Bay of Pigs, the Contras and the Mujahaddin, but would there be in a post 9/11 world? Are they acting against a democracy or a dictatorship?Originally Posted by Ken White
...and if you think about it, this question falls outside the realm of military thought. This is one for diplomats, not soldiers, or military theorists.
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
I can think of several areas
throughout the globe where if pressure from the US and others doesn't affect change in governance enough, there may very well be groups of individuals who's methods we may disagree with but whose purpose we would actually be in a position of supporting. Thats why defining it seems to me to be such a never ending pursuit.
Kinda like Stochastic math; great stuff with purpose but what the heck is it?
The problem, Wilf, is that
I've not only thought about it, I've been able to live it. During that life, it came to my attention as a soldier, not a theorist, that I went a lot of places and did a lot of things that were militarily unsound and strategically inane, even borderline stupid and not at all in the realm of soldiers but that the politicians and diplomats wanted a presence or something done so soldiers went. And did what the civilians wanted to be done......and if you think about it, this question falls outside the realm of military thought. This is one for diplomats, not soldiers, or military theorists.
Democracies are messy that way.To quote Sir Sean Connery, "Never say never..."Then they become good criminals not bad criminals. Actually I don't see any grown up western democracy supporting any insurgency these days. Sure there was the Bay of Pigs, the Contras and the Mujahaddin, but would there be in a post 9/11 world? Are they acting against a democracy or a dictatorship?
Democracies are messy that way.
I think Ron has it right.
Cannot disagree. My whole foundation of military theory started with the premise that everything I had learnt as a soldier was unsound and nonsensical. Now, 5-7 years later, I have reduce it to about 25% of what I leant was unsound or nonsensical.
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
I can buy that figure. I'll also note that,
as I'm sure you've discovered, some of that which was earlier considered by me to be nonsense actually had a sound and logical basis but just hadn't been modified to cope with societal and technological differences. All that was required was minor tweaking.
Discovered also that if you can point out truly nonsensical thing to the right person (and that is critical, the wrong one will do nothing) things can get changed.
Years ago, US Army track vehicle mechanics were trained at Forts Knox (on tanks) and Sill (on self propelled guns) as well as Aberdeen Proving Ground (on APCs). Problem was that they all ended up with the same MOS (job code) and one could be in a Mech Infantry Battalion and have a slew of SP Artillery mechanics who couldn't spell APC. Years of complaint up the chain were to no avail -- until De Puy, then the TRADOC CG was briefed on it in a Motor Pool in Korea. Got fixed in a matter of weeks and all Track mechanics went to Knox to learn all the systems.
The moral of that story is the chain of command is important -- but sometimes (often?) you have to short circuit it to get things done. Carefully, of course -- but unhesitatingly...
Steve:
I think I can see which way this is going to pan out........
Please bear with me...
Scene, a street in Bahdad, Ahmad the garbage man has been stopped and surrounded by an American patrol.
Patrol Leader (Through interpreter): Now Mr. Ahmad, on a scale of One to Five, with five being I completely agree and One being completely disagree, would you say your involvement in Jihad is formal and complex?
Ahmad: I ain't got no involvement in jihad, the empty 155 shells in the truck are on there way to the scrap metal dealer, I picked them up yesterday, they were doorstops at Sadaams old place.
Patrol Leader: So thats a One? Strongly disagree? So that makes question Two, informal links to Jihad a Five?
Ahmad: Look I just said I don't do Jihad!
Patrol Leader: The logic of my procedure here is laid out in black and white, "If the answer to question one is one, then the answer to question Two is Five", Here, read it yourself.
Ahmad: Look I can't read English and I don't do jihad, you want the 155 shells?
Patrol Leader: Now Ahmad, concentrate, on a scale of One to Five, how would you rate your attention to your religion?
Ahmad: Look I have a bad back that stops me praying a lot at the Mosque, put me down as a Two and a Half.
Patrol Leader: That will have to be rounded up to a three according to the procedure. Now Ahmad, Why are you doing this work? Are you doing this work out of friendship, or for Allah? On a scale of One to Five, how would you rate your motivation for this work?
Ahmad: Are you kidding? Before the war I was an architect specialising in palaces, but now all I can get is this crummy job, make that a One.
Patrol Leader: Now Ahmad, are all garbage workers like you? How would you rate the homogeniety of your fellow workers?
Ahmad: Homo-what? Oh I understand, yes we are all members of the union but we do have different backgrounds, make that a Four.
Patrol leader: And Ahmad, do you think you are goal driven or not, please, on a scale of One to Five...
Ahmad: Are you kidding? My goal is to get the heck out of here and work as an architect for Donald Trump in New York. Make that a Five!
Patrol Leader: And are you tightly or loosely bound to this goal?
Ahmad: Go ask my wife! She is always nagging me to get her out of here, make that a Five!
Patrol Leader: Now Ahmad, think carefully, have you ever threatened anyone?
Ahmad; Me? Who is there for a garbage worker to threaten? Thats a One.
Patrol Leader: Have you ever been violent Ahmad?
Ahmad: I beat the crap out of a cousin once when I was twelve. He stole my football.
Patrol Leader: I'll just consult the matrix here, just a second,,,, Wow! That comes in as a Four!
Patrol Leader: Now Ahmad, do you work on your own?
Ahmad: Yep, most of the time, no one else wants this stinking job.
Patrol Leader: Thats a Five. Almost finished now, and Ahmad, are you linked with any organisations?
Ahmad: Sure! I'm a member of the Baghdad garbage workers union, local #27. The Sadr city lions club and the Baghdad football club.
Patrol Leader: Three affiliations, thats also a four according to the tables. Now bear with me for a minute Ahmad while I total up the points on this form and calculate your T-Score...
Ahmad: Thank God thats over, I need to get these to the depot and then go shopping for my wife's birthday.
Patrol Leader; Mr. Ahmad, I'm sorry to have to inform you that your T-Score is 88.5 which means that there is a high probability you are a senior Al Qaeeda leader! Guys! Cuff him and take him in!
I'm not sure the analysis of terrorist groups neatly fits into Western concepts and categories, although I applaud your effort at trying. I also believe that there is evidence that the group dynamic is constantly changing as well. I personally think the anthropological approach offers a better understanding and more useful insights.informal/simple ------------ formal/complex
nonideological --------------------- ideological
constituency serving ------------------- self-serving
heterogeneous ----------------- homogenous
limited goals ----------------- revolutionary goals
loosely bound ------------------ tightly bound
non-threatening ------------- most threatening
less violent--------------------more violent
autonomous ----------------- dependent
unlinked ---------------------------- linked
Just as an exercise, how would you classify the Kosovars?
Last edited by walrus; 01-30-2008 at 10:05 AM.
I'm not enough of an expert to place them on the ten dimensions.
Walrus. I AM LAUGHING MY ASS OFF. I have copied your post widely!
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
Gotta ditto that, Wilf!
I think I'm going to assign it as mandatory reading for my students.
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
What's really sad ....
Marc,I think I'm going to assign it as mandatory reading for my students
I think this is what some of your "colleagues" actually believe the HTTs are doing.
John Wolfsberger, Jr.
An unruffled person with some useful skills.
Not at all! I'm shocked and appalled that you would think an Anthropologist would come up with thisMarc,
I think this is what some of your "colleagues" actually believe the HTTs are doing.
Here's the Anthro version - from the extreme Post-Modernist Syndrome side. Bear in mind that none of the real people on the HTT's would ever spout such sierra...
**********
Scene, a street in Baghdad, Ahmad the garbage man has been stopped and surrounded by an American patrol.
Patrol Leader (Through interpreter): Now Mr. Ahmad, can you tell us how you, as an enlightened individual, feel about the immediate after effects of elitist, Imperialist American aggression?
Ahmad: Hunh? Uh, you guys are US troops aren't you? I ain't got no involvement in jihad let me tell you! The empty 155 shells in the truck are on there way to the scrap metal dealer, I picked them up yesterday, they were doorstops at Sadaams old place.
Patrol Leader: So that means that you are feeling as if the naked grab for economic power by US multinational corporations has led to a decrease in your personal libety?
Ahmad: (looking totally confused) Umm, well, sort of. I used toi be a palace architecht but, like I just said, I don't do Jihad!
Patrol Leader: Mr. Ahmad, you shouldn't consider that the perfectly normal expression of moral outrage at having your livelihood destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered and your country occupied by foreign crusaders, this "jihad" in your culture's equally valid terms, is anything but a matter of non-violent protest against an undeniably oppressive occupation.
Ahmad: (looking totally confused right now) Ah, are you saying that being involved in an anti-American jihad is okay?
Patrol Leader: (sounding indignant) Not only is it "okay" Mr. Ahmad, it is the moral duty of all persons of good will to resist the imposition of a crypto-fascistic, neo-imperialist, ideological hegemony when it is thrust upon them by the unthinking lackies of the capitalist Globalization conspiracy!
Ahmad: (looking around for the video cameras to make sure that he isn't being filmed for Americas Funniest Home Videos) So, um, I said I didn't do Jihad but you seem to be saying I should.... I am getting confused, here!
Patrol leader: (speaking sternly) Mr. Ahmad! Really, there is nothing confusing about the issue! Clearly, you have been oppressed by the occupying crusaders to the point where you have suffered what Gramsci referred to as an internalization of the ideological hegemony that has been thrust upon you!
Patrol Leader; (speaking to the rest of the partol) Mr. Ahmad, I'm sorry to have to inform you that your T-Score is 88.5 which means that there is a high probability you are have been brainwashed and might actually support the illegal occupation of Iraq and the attempts of crypto-fascist ideologs to eradicate your unique and extremely valuable culture! Guys! Cuff him and take him in for re-education!
Last edited by marct; 01-30-2008 at 09:17 PM. Reason: editing - sticky keys
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
That
would be coinsiderably funnier were there not such a corrolation with the thinking of some fairly well known peopleNot at all! I'm shocked and appalled that you would think an Anthropologist would come up with this
Here's the Anthro version - from the extreme Post-Modernist Syndrome side. Bear in mind that none of the real people on the HTT's would ever spout such sierra...
**********
Unfortunately, I think you're right <sigh>. Remember, these are my colleagues - I have to deal with them; you guys just gets the splatterwould be coinsiderably funnier were there not such a corrolation with the thinking of some fairly well known people
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
Re-education? No! It would be cultural sensitivity education and orientation. Since obviously the poor fool doesn't have the sensitivity to grasp the unique aspects of his culture that can only be divined by over-educated outsiders with polysyllabic capabilities.....
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Marc,
Your version reminds me of the scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail were Arthur introduces himself to the peasant, wrongfully identified initially as "Old Woman," who is collecting muck.
My only question is why no quotations from Habermas Adorno, or some other Frankfurt School wizard?
Well done.
Hi WM,
Well, I suspect it's because part of my mind has been spun off analyzing the rhetoric of some of my colleagues, so it seemed more appropriate to use a bricolage rather than a structural analysisMy only question is why no quotations from Habermas Adorno, or some other Frankfurt School wizard?
Marc
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
You do that and Tim Burton will show up looking for royalties.If you guys make this term mainstream, there are a bunch of us that are going to hunt you down and make you say it three times backwards
I often use the "She turned me into a newt" episode from the witch trial to explain American politics.Marc,
Your version reminds me of the scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail were Arthur introduces himself to the peasant, wrongfully identified initially as "Old Woman," who is collecting muck.
My only question is why no quotations from Habermas Adorno, or some other Frankfurt School wizard?
Well done.
Steve,
I see the connection with Sir Bedevere's logic. The only problem I see with that comparison is that, unlike the peasant, American politics can't say ,"Well, I got better." (At least not yet and I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen)
I'm convinced that last week when the question was posed, "What can we do about the decline of the dollar?" Rush Limbaugh's answer was, "A duck!"Steve,
I see the connection with Sir Bedevere's logic. The only problem I see with that comparison is that, unlike the peasant, American politics can't say ,"Well, I got better." (At least not yet and I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen
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