in my experience many if not most who would accomplish a given task despite a lack of defined tasking were not on the honor roll, generally the opposite.Originally Posted by Ken White
(for a variety of reasons)
I would have to agree
in my experience many if not most who would accomplish a given task despite a lack of defined tasking were not on the honor roll, generally the opposite.
(for a variety of reasons)
Only too true Ron. A man who has the will and the mental agility to make it in the real world, even if he is a "high-school dropout", is rather likelier to be the kind of man to be able to create order out of chaos, than a man who has "learned" within the comparatively predictable and safe confines of "the system" - selil is right on the money about this. And if any further proof need be required for what the latter path made lead to within the military, I would offer the nearly universal observation of most of us that sending officers to civilian universities for MBA's and MSc's in SA, etc., tends to "ruin" the professional military competence of many of the same said officers.in my experience many if not most who would accomplish a given task despite a lack of defined tasking were not on the honor roll, generally the opposite.
(for a variety of reasons)
Wilf made a very good point a week or two ago, when he stated that the Royal Marines have a solid approach to recruiting officers; they take both those who have either a Service Academy background or civilian university background, as well as those who possess only a high school matriculation - a couple "O" levels and half a dozen "A" levels.
As to enlisted man education, high school is great, but considering that many of the best soldiers have had relatively modest formal civilian educations, a high school matriculation is unlikely to be necessary, except for certain technical tasks. As to the argument that at least a high school education is or will be required for present or future technologies, that may or may not be true. But it seems to me that twenty years ago, the GAO went after the Army saying that the average soldier had an IQ that was substantially below that of the minimum deemed necessary to effectively use its high-tech weapons - even while uneducated Mujahideen were knocking Soviet fighter-bombers out of the sky with Stingers.
The point is, don't confuse civilian education with that required for the military; the two are quite different, and necessarily so for the most part.
I think it is simply the time away from the profession that causes any ruin, to the degree that any even occurs. Whether the break in service occurs for civilian education or other reason is irrelevant. I am in an MBA program now and I can recognize that much of the curriculum dealing with human resources and stakeholder theory is a rational concept taken to politically-twisted and irrational extremes. Neither I nor anyone else is required, or gullible enough, to simply accept every theory or opinion as gospel. It's like most of my NCO's used to say: "You can't BS a BS-er." Any veteran should have the ability to receive a civilian education while recognizing what is crap and what is credible.
If I go back to the military then I will be rusty as a result of my time away from the profession, not due to my MBA.
I'm not sure how it works in other MBA programs, but the core Sloan track is essentially data modeling, finance, and communications. Students then proceed into electives of their own choosing, but as far as I can tell these are labs were the best science available on a given topic (which instructors emphatically describe as highly conditional) is presented (defense and objections and all), explained and tested as best as possible against real world cases.
PH Cannady
Correlate Systems
I think one potential thing being overlooked here is that while lower standards for recruits may or may not have an impact on the overall quality of soldier (I have my own ideas but won't contest what has been said here), it DOES continue and probably accelerate the gap and disconnect between those who serve, particularly as EMs, and those who do not.
Not that this is an intended consequence, nor is it the fault of anyone but the so-called "higher" socio-economic classes for not choosing to serve themselves, but when the population as a whole is becoming more and more educated, and the service population is simultaneously lowering its requirements and accepting more and more non-HS graduates, you're widening the gap and creating the possibility for resentment (in both directions). In a democratic country where the military is a reflection of and arm of the citizenry, that is a very unhealthy thing.
Perceptions of the military as a bunch of dead-enders sent off to fight and die or of the population as a whole as rich, spoiled, and morally and ethically inferior to the serving military are very, very dangerous things in a democracy. We may know they're not true, but social divides like this propagate stereotypes, distrust, and eventually resentment.
Matt
"Give a good leader very little and he will succeed. Give a mediocrity a great deal and he will fail." - General George C. Marshall
This has actually been the most common historical perception of the military by the American public at large...at least until the end of World War II. And the feelings about the civilian population were held by a fair number of officers (at least) during the post-Civil War period. But at that time the officers tended to socialize with the social elite anyhow, so they reserved the bulk of their disdain for the "masses."
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Heh. Steve, If I recall correctly, the
Officers Guide of 1886 (I think that's the edition) had this line in it:
"Enlisted Men are ignorant and stupid but are extremely cunning and sly and bear considerable watching."
Always got a chuckle at that...
This is my experience as well, though I'd love some well funded longitudinal study addressing this exact question to back me up.in my experience many if not most who would accomplish a given task despite a lack of defined tasking were not on the honor roll, generally the opposite.
(for a variety of reasons)
PH Cannady
Correlate Systems
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