Dumb and Dumber? Or Condescending and Misguided?

[Presley Cannady]

I'm not sure how it works in other MBA programs, but the core Sloan track is essentially data modeling, finance, and communications. Students then proceed into electives of their own choosing, but as far as I can tell these are labs were the best science available on a given topic (which instructors emphatically describe as highly conditional) is presented (defense and objections and all), explained and tested as best as possible against real world cases.

[MattC86]

I think one potential thing being overlooked here is that while lower standards for recruits may or may not have an impact on the overall quality of soldier (I have my own ideas but won't contest what has been said here), it DOES continue and probably accelerate the gap and disconnect between those who serve, particularly as EMs, and those who do not.

Not that this is an intended consequence, nor is it the fault of anyone but the so-called "higher" socio-economic classes for not choosing to serve themselves, but when the population as a whole is becoming more and more educated, and the service population is simultaneously lowering its requirements and accepting more and more non-HS graduates, you're widening the gap and creating the possibility for resentment (in both directions). In a democratic country where the military is a reflection of and arm of the citizenry, that is a very unhealthy thing.

Perceptions of the military as a bunch of dead-enders sent off to fight and die or of the population as a whole as rich, spoiled, and morally and ethically inferior to the serving military are very, very dangerous things in a democracy. We may know they're not true, but social divides like this propagate stereotypes, distrust, and eventually resentment.

Matt

[Steve Blair]

Perceptions of the military as a bunch of dead-enders sent off to fight and die or of the population as a whole as rich, spoiled, and morally and ethically inferior to the serving military are very, very dangerous things in a democracy. We may know they're not true, but social divides like this propagate stereotypes, distrust, and eventually resentment.

Matt

This has actually been the most common historical perception of the military by the American public at large...at least until the end of World War II. And the feelings about the civilian population were held by a fair number of officers (at least) during the post-Civil War period. But at that time the officers tended to socialize with the social elite anyhow, so they reserved the bulk of their disdain for the "masses."

[Ken White]

Officers Guide of 1886 (I think that's the edition) had this line in it:

"Enlisted Men are ignorant and stupid but are extremely cunning and sly and bear considerable watching."

Always got a chuckle at that...

[marct]

Hi Guys,

There are advantages to coalition warfare, but unless your partners see it the same as you, there are disadvantages and risks as well. If its our most dire and direct interests - that does not leave much room for anything but stopping the Huns on the beach (unless they infiltrate from Canada- Marc we're watching you guys)

Heh! Rob, you haven't been watching The Canadian Conspiracy have you ?

Dang... I'm not sure what to say about the wholesale attack on higher education. Glad it's marct teaching anthro and not me.

Honestly, I don't think it's an attach on higher education but, rather, an attack on credentialism. I certainly agree with Presley that college isn't for everyone, at least if that is modified to "right now". I have had to many 1st year students (I think you folks south of the border call them "freshmen" ) who a) had no idea why they were there, b) had no interest at all in being there, and c) had no idea what to do now that they were there.

I think that creping credentialism (meaning substituting a credential for an actual test and training) is one of the worst things about modern society. Would someone please tel me why it is necessary to have a BA in order to work at a coffee shop (no sierra, that's a required credential at some Canadian coffee shops). I know how it all came about, I just think it is a marker of an increasingly sick society.

Marc

[Steve Blair]

Officers Guide of 1886 (I think that's the edition) had this line in it:

"Enlisted Men are ignorant and stupid but are extremely cunning and sly and bear considerable watching."

Always got a chuckle at that...

Ken,

That line is one of the great myths of the military. It's been attributed to George Washington of all people, and I know there's a cite out there claiming the Officer's Guide. Problem is that there was no such book (at least not that I've been able to track down...although one might have been privately published). I've also seen it tracked back to a 1904 edition of a naval officer's guide.

One of these days I want to do some serious digging on this one.

[Ken White]

...
Honestly, I don't think it's an attach on higher education but, rather, an attack on credentialism. I certainly agree with Presley that college isn't for everyone, at least if that is modified to "right now". I have had to many 1st year students (I think you folks south of the border call them "freshmen" ) who a) had no idea why they were there, b) had no interest at all in being there, and c) had no idea what to do now that they were there.

However that appears to be true here in the US -- in spades. I took a couple of courses at a local University as an auditing adult a couple of years ago and spent a lot of time talking to the other far, far younger students. I was impressed by the innate decency and common sense of most and the absolute cluelessness of many at what they wanted out of college or what they were going to do afterwards. There were, of course, exceptions but my impression was that about 80% were there solely because they thought they were supposed to be...

I think that creping credentialism (meaning substituting a credential for an actual test and training) is one of the worst things about modern society. Would someone please tel me why it is necessary to have a BA in order to work at a coffee shop (no sierra, that's a required credential at some Canadian coffee shops). I know how it all came about, I just think it is a marker of an increasingly sick society.
Marc

My perception is that it occurred here due to two factors; the first being that the Baby Boomer parents wanted their kids to have better opportunities than they believed they had and sent the kids off to get what was here and then a fairly inexpensive further education.

They believed that necessary because in the late fifties, we started dumbing down the High Schools. Confronted with typical post pubescent angst and rebelliousness, the educational milieu here decided to accommodate instead channeling that and forcing the kids to study and develop rudimentary skills.

As was pointed out up thread, the High Schools thus focused on college prep and anyone who didn't wish to pursue that course was left to founder. So just as the Army decided that a High School completion indicated an ability to finish a task, the commercial world decided that a Degree was an even better indicator of capability.

All those factors combined to effectively set a new and unnecessary norm and flood the market; todays degree is yesteryears diploma and we're all worse off for it. I suspect that soon a Masters will be required for the Coffee Shop...

[marct]

Hi Ken,

However that appears to be true here in the US -- in spades. I took a couple of courses at a local University as an auditing adult a couple of years ago and spent a lot of time talking to the other far, far younger students. I was impressed by the innate decency and common sense of most and the absolute cluelessness of many at what they wanted out of college or what they were going to do afterwards. There were, of course, exceptions but my impression was that about 80% were there solely because they thought they were supposed to be...

I've seen the same thing myself. I've also noticed a slight shift over the last 3 years or so with fewer people being totally clueless and more being interested in trying to get an actual education - mostly, from what they say, because they felt totally ripped off in HS.

My perception is that it occurred here due to two factors; the first being that the Baby Boomer parents wanted their kids to have better opportunities than they believed they had and sent the kids off to get what was here and then a fairly inexpensive further education.

Yup. In both the US and Canada, the cost for returning servicemen to go o university was significantly lower than ever before which sparked an inflationary trend in the general availability of degrees.

They believed that necessary because in the late fifties, we started dumbing down the High Schools. Confronted with typical post pubescent angst and rebelliousness, the educational milieu here decided to accommodate instead channeling that and forcing the kids to study and develop rudimentary skills.

Agreed. When that is added to the recent insanity of what is "taught" at HS, I am surprised that anyone has any basic study skills left . I'm not sure about the US, but in Ontario at least (education is a provincial responsibility), the HS system is designed to destroy original thinking rather than provide the basic building blocks that will help it. I have seen too many students who "survived" (their term, not mine) HS only to blossom under my nasty teaching standards ("What, you haven't read the Bible? It's the core cultural text for Western civilization! Go out and read the entire thing, including the Apocrypha, for next week and we'll carry on the discussion.").

As was pointed out up thread, the High Schools thus focused on college prep and anyone who didn't wish to pursue that course was left to founder. So just as the Army decided that a High School completion indicated an ability to finish a task, the commercial world decided that a Degree was an even better indicator of capability.

We've seen an interesting phenomenon over the past 5-8 years or so - people going to University to get a BA and then to community college (basically ours are vocational schools) to get a certificate. They learn how to do it at community college and why to do it at university. It's a response to the way the job-candidate nexus has shifted here.

All those factors combined to effectively set a new and unnecessary norm and flood the market; todays degree is yesteryears diploma and we're all worse off for it. I suspect that soon a Masters will be required for the Coffee Shop...

I used to joke that a 3 year BA (we don't really have those 2 year Associate degrees) should have a skills component that required learning how to say "And would you like fries with that?". Now I don't joke about it anymore - just add it in <sigh>.

Marc

[Ken White]

Ken,

That line is one of the great myths of the military. It's been attributed to George Washington of all people, and I know there's a cite out there claiming the Officer's Guide. Problem is that there was no such book (at least not that I've been able to track down...although one might have been privately published). I've also seen it tracked back to a 1904 edition of a naval officer's guide.

One of these days I want to do some serious digging on this one.

I ran across it at Ft. Knox. It appeared in the 1978 Defense Appropriation Act with no source. One of the NCOs got curious and went to the USAARMS Library and dug around and came up with a 'source.' I may have the title of the nominal source wrong and the year, as I said, is suspect -- 30 years has dimmed the ol' synapses -- but it was something along that line and about that time in the 19th century.

The guy was fairly reliable so I didn't dig into it, just took it at face value. I've heard the line since several times in various places but had never heard it before 1977 though it may have been around. Nor have I heard it attributed to Washington (and based on what I've read that he wrote or signed, it doesn't sound like something he'd say).

So, apocryphal or not, good line, regardless..

(and if it is apocryphal, proves what I've long suspected about appropriators -- they make stuff up ...)

[Tom Odom]

So, apocryphal or not, good line, regardless..

And true

Stan will shoot me...

From the History of the NCO Pamphlet:

...(Private) Lowe was intelligent, well-educated, and strong, which made him an ideal soldier for the years ahead.

A few days after enlisting he was sent to Carlisle Barracks, Pennsylvania, a school for mounted recruits. Lowe received training, drilling on foot and horseback, and practice with the saber. He also met “Big Mit,” a tough Irishman with a crude disposition.

Several weeks after enlisting, Lowe sat eating chicken at a table in the mess hall. Big Mit, a six-feet two-inch giant weighing 225 pounds, decided he would finish off all the chicken on the table. He looked at Lowe, who sat
silent, and sneered an insult. Lowe sprang to his feet, drew his saber, and beat Big Mit with it.

Luckily for Lowe and Big Mit, the saber was dull, and after a few days in the hospital, Big Mit began a long healing process. No action was taken against Lowe when he explained what had happened. ....

Sundays were inspection days. The men, their barracks, and gear would be inspected by their Troop Commander. One Saturday evening, Big Mit decided to trade his gear for Lowe’s. When Lowe ret.urned from supper he noticed the gear on his bunk was not the clean, sharplooking equipment he had left. Looking around, Lowe found his rightful gear on Big Mit’s bunk. He took his
gear, leaving the soiled gear in its place.

When Big Mit returned from supper to find his old dirty gear laying on his bunk, he was furious. Grabbing a carbine, Big Mit charged towards Lowe. Lowe drew his saber and again beat Big Mit with all his might. Two officers of the guard separated the men. Big Mit was taken to the hospital for a month’s stay. Lowe meanwhile explained his actions and was sent back to his unit (*Lowe}
The two episodes with Big Mit had little effect on Lowe’s career. His ducation, intelligence, and courage were more important.

I never touched Stan's chicken, gear, or his beer...

[Schmedlap]

I'm not sure if it is just the nature of an MBA program, but I notice that very few of my peers seem to have any interest at all in what is being taught. Almost every question takes the form of "if this were asked on a test..." or "will this be on the test?" They just want that MBA diploma for the increased earning power that it will bring them - usually in the line of work that they are already doing.

On the issues of "college is not for everyone" and "creeping credentialism" - both comments that I agree with - Charles Murray wrote a 3-part series of articles in the Wall Street Journal last year on this topic.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009531
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009535
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009541

[Ron Humphrey]

I'm not sure if it is just the nature of an MBA program, but I notice that very few of my peers seem to have any interest at all in what is being taught. Almost every question takes the form of "if this were asked on a test..." or "will this be on the test?" They just want that MBA diploma for the increased earning power that it will bring them - usually in the line of work that they are already doing.

On the issues of "college is not for everyone" and "creeping credentialism" - both comments that I agree with - Charles Murray wrote a 3-part series of articles in the Wall Street Journal last year on this topic.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009531
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009535
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009541

I have over 160 credit hours worth of classes from community college and through my Baker degree program . Problem is too many of the classes were tech education based and not all gen ed courses that I needed where gotten out of the way . This doesn't include any credit for DLI or votech type training.

If all they look for is the piece of paper I got an AAS thats it. kinda a different take and completely my own fault for worrying more about learning things I thought would help in my jobs than what blocks were being checked;
neverless exemplary of how certs become more important than real knowledge or past experience.

Who knew basket weaving was more important than police management and supervision or Teaching Careers Awareness

[marct]

Hi Ron,

The idea behind gened courses was to expand people's viewpoint beyond narrow technical areas. As a general idea, I actually agree with the goal, but the means are a little out of kilter with reality. Nowadays, we have a social requirement for what my university's PR department calls "lifelong learning". This is leading to a split in pedagogical strategies between those that are job/career focused, those that are perceptually focused, and those somewhere in the middle - call them "intellectually focused".

At the heart of that debate is the unspoken, although often shouted, question of "what is education?" and, whispered quietly, who has a monopoly on it. One of the best "educated" people I ever knew, in the old sense of a broad knowledge base and an inquiring mind, was my grandfather who never got past grade 3. By todays credentialized standards, he wouldn't be able to get an entry level job in either of his careers (2 BTN RCHA and Brewers Retail... something about that combo....).

For the past couple of centuries, "education" has been the monopoly of "educational institutions" aided and abetted by legislation and business interests. Part of the reason was quite rational - you can't have a "high technology" society (even the late 19th century version of one) without near universal literacy and that means you have to force kids out of the workplace and into schools.

But it also has a downside - it means that you have to control the process of education by establishing set standards including pedagogical standards, and standards are not purely technical, they are also social and political. In order to establish the social legitimacy of the new education system in the 19th century, older forms of education had to be denigrated and stigmatized; "self taught" had to be relegated to myth, while "university educated" had to be elevated which, in turn, has created a hierarchy of "knowledge experts" whose expertise is established by their credentials rather than by their accomplishments.

Follow this line up to the present and we end up with a very nasty situation. I just finished a draft of a paper and sent it off to some friends and colleagues for comment. One of the people I sent it to is a very intelligent acquaintance of mine, who is at an institution of higher education which will be un-named (no, it's not mine). He commented that this was the first time someone with a PhD had ever asked his opinion. My response was, as always, eloquent (read "WTF??????).

For me, this exchange crystallized one of the big problems I see in today's education system - the idea that if you have the credential, you must know what you are talking about. I like to think that I am fairly intelligent, but a large part of that is just basic common sense based on Socrates, "ask the man who knows [from experience]". And this gets us back to experiential knowledge, which is a strategy that was excluded from the formal education system during the late 19th century.

So, back to gened courses. Increasingly, in Canada at least, we are starting to see the development of PLAR (Prior Learning Assessment and Recognition - and you guys thought it was only the military that had useless acronyms ). PLAR is a strategy by many educational institutions to bring experiential learning into the "credentials fold" especially amongst recent immigrants where their education systems are radically different from ours. Ron, maybe you should think about applying for a PLAR credit for gened and working the system that way .

Marc

[selil]

Marc you're channeling John Dewey again.

[marct]

Marc you're channeling John Dewey again.

Summoning his spirit, yeah, but not channeling - I'm not a medium . But you're right, Dewey was the architect of the North American education movement.

BTW, the little imp in the triangle next to Dewey's spirit is Uncle Karl (pace his work in the economic and philosophical manuscripts of 1844).

[selil]

Marc, maybe what we need to do is write a paper on how the "industrial revoluton" era education better served the military establishment then the "enlightened Dr. Spock" form of education we have now. I don't know about your University but at ours the "stove pipes" of the specialiazation process is breaking down. Inter-disciplinary is the catch phrase now and working toward a balance between theory and practice. When I got my Masters Degree the university I was attending was "state of the practice", and now working on my PhD the phrase is "applied research". My children though are being exposed to preliminary (primary) education that actually promotes concepts like "if they can't skip, then they can't read", and oh another goody "We don't care about accuracy they need to do math problems quickly" and feel good about it... I don't think the wave of education k-12 (with no child left behind laws) is going to serve the military. Credentialism is being fed by the fact the k-12 system is not doing it's job and you have to finish a students education. I'm not sure in higher education we're doing that well currently but I think it is getting better.

[marct]

Hi Selil,

Marc, maybe what we need to do is write a paper on how the "industrial revoluton" era education better served the military establishment then the "enlightened Dr. Spock" form of education we have now.

May be worth looking at..... after I get other projects finished and you finish your course from the netherworld .

I don't know about your University but at ours the "stove pipes" of the specialiazation process is breaking down. Inter-disciplinary is the catch phrase now and working toward a balance between theory and practice. When I got my Masters Degree the university I was attending was "state of the practice", and now working on my PhD the phrase is "applied research".

It's similar up here, but if you look at the disciplinary stove pipes, they are actually getting reinforced as far as career paths are concerned. Basically, in order to get hired you have to be doing approved research (aka Kuhnian "normal science") and you only get to play in interdisciplinarity once you have tenure.

OTOH, the Institute I work out of is purely interdisciplinary and the program I teach in is the core of that (we have several other highly successful programs that are area focused). Hanging around and chatting is amazing - we have sociologists, psychologists, anthropologists, computer scientists, cognitive science folks, human rights people, etc., etc. On the Third Hand, our Institute's director had to resign last month due to stress brought on, in part, by dealing with inter-unit politics .

My children though are being exposed to preliminary (primary) education that actually promotes concepts like "if they can't skip, then they can't read", and oh another goody "We don't care about accuracy they need to do math problems quickly" and feel good about it... I don't think the wave of education k-12 (with no child left behind laws) is going to serve the military.

This has been going on for too long now . I think my favorite analysis of it is here.

Credentialism is being fed by the fact the k-12 system is not doing it's job and you have to finish a students education. I'm not sure in higher education we're doing that well currently but I think it is getting better.

I think that there are some significant differences between higher ed in Canada and the US - outside of the fact you sent us many of your Marxists in the 60's and 70's . I'm not sure how that plays out in terms of perceptions about the military....

Marc

[wm]

I think that there are some significant differences between higher ed in Canada and the US - outside of the fact you sent us many of your Marxists in the 60's and 70's . I'm not sure how that plays out in terms of perceptions about the military...

As much as I know it didn't help you out, I'm glad we off-loaded at least some of them up north. There's no telling how much worse the US education system would be if they had all stayed here and become "educators."We already have enough of them pushing out the "free speech community" related tripe found in too many language arts programs and that is a root cause of a lot of the other problems within our primary and secondary education programs.

[Stan]

Hey Marc !

I'm not sure how that plays out in terms of perceptions about the military....

Marc

A little Googling and found this 2007 survey. Interesting footnotes regarding the military. The same survey (fortunately) determined that both Canada and the US Literacy rates are 99%. However, the Canucks seem to have an enormous amount of Roman Catholics (Mediums if you will)

Military: One of the main reasons why the US spends so much on its military is that it is the economic leader of the world. Holding that place makes enemies of smaller, less wealthy countries and/or groups that oppose the fundamental beliefs of democracy and freedom that the United States stands for. For example, North Korea spends approximately 31% of its GDP on its military, while its people literally starve...

...Canada plays a part in keeping the peace, though its political support greatly outweighs its military contributions. Many First or Second World countries, and a few Third World countries have the ability to defeat Canada alone in a military engagement.

However, Canada is one of the safest places in the world to live because the US is immediately west and south of it.

[marct]

Hey Stan,

A little Googling and found this 2007 survey. Interesting footnotes regarding the military. The same survey (fortunately) determined that both Canada and the US Literacy rates are 99%. However, the Canucks seem to have an enormous amount of Roman Catholics (Mediums if you will)

Actually, religious affiliation in Canada is measured in a really weird way - it is a self-determination based, in part, on religion at birth. My gut guess would be that of that 42.6% fully 80% are "non-practicing". We are still in the process of publishing our last census material (2006), but some interesting trends are starting to appear.

Marc