LTC Anthony Herbert

[Rifleman]

Does anyone know whatever became of this man? Where he is now, or if he's still living?

I remember reading his book Soldier 20 years ago and liking it. Later, Hackworth's book came out and I was amazed at the similarities in the outlook and experiences of the two men with the Big Army in general and the situations they faced in Vietnam in particular.

Herbert never has jumped on the commentator bandwagon. He just sort of dropped of the radar screen. I think it could be interesting to hear his take on some things.

[Ken White]

two kinda flaky Icons who were legends in their own minds. Both did some good things, both got a little carried away with themselves IMO. I've got the dubious distinction of having served near but not with both, though I did get placed OpCon to Hackworth once. that was interesting. And I did see Herbert's interplay with another Major named Reifsnyder at Green Ramp -- it was not the way Herbert told it in the book.

I've heard pro and con on his 173d time so I suspect the truth is, as usual, somewhere in between. Though his bad guy in the book, then LTC Ross Franklyn, was, indeeed, a piece of work....

Last I heard, he'd gotten a PhD in Psych and was practicing as a Psychologist in Denver. For some vague reason I remember he's about a year older than I am so that means he's 77 (+ or -).

[bismark17]

Wow. Thats a blast from the past. I read, Soldier, at least 5 times as a kid growing up. Its something I have been meaning to reread at some point. I am sure I might have a different perspective now that I have seen both sides of the "persecution" syndrome.

[Tom Odom]

two kinda flaky Icons who were legends in their own minds. Both did some good things, both got a little carried away with themselves IMO. I've got the dubious distinction of having served near but not with both, though I did get placed OpCon to Hackworth once. that was interesting. And I did see Herbert's interplay with another Major named Reifsnyder at Green Ramp -- it was not the way Herbert told it in the book.

I've heard pro and con on his 173d time so I suspect the truth is, as usual, somewhere in between. Though his bad guy in the book, then LTC Ross Franklyn, was, indeeed, a piece of work....

Last I heard, he'd gotten a PhD in Psych and was practicing as a Psychologist in Denver. For some vague reason I remember he's about a year older than I am so that means he's 77 (+ or -).

My battalion TAC as a cadet at Texas A&M was at beening when Franklin was there and they had a dinning in at which someone smuggled in a duck wearing "dress blues". Franklin was not pleased.

Best

Tom

[casaloma]

This great man and Soldier served his country with distingtion and Honor. He can certainly hold his head up high without reservation.

Everyone always has a slant to which attack or defend some one else in this world.

The fact is this man served our country with distiction and stood up against a system which had run amuck.

I believe he is happy in his solitude, I located him and may he spend his days in peace.


Gordon

[Ernie Webb]

It is interesting how many people comment on Herbert without any facts. I was with Herbert in Vietnam. I also comanded the same company in Germany that he had commanded a few years earlier, and everyone knew him and admired him --- unless you were one of those who felt you deserved special treatment. He set standards, and he lived them. He expected everyone in his unit to also live them. Yes, he did receive his PhD in psychology after the army ran him out. He was the head psychologist for the Colorado penal system for several years. The army has subsequently admitted that he was correct all along. The army developed a white paper of 32 points to discredit Herbert back in 1969 - 1971--- and when the papers were finally declassified about two years ago-- the army admitted that they had lied --in an attempt to discredit him. He is a man who does not care for banter--- and gets to the point very quickly. This offends a lot of people-- oh, well -- if the truth stated bluntly offends you--- that is your problem. That he does not think highly of those who abuse their positions--- and is willing to fight to see fairness come through -- go look at the Supreme Court decision of Herbert v. Lando and CBS. Herbert won this case at the supreme court level. Someone at a fairly high level believed in his courage and integrity--- and honesty. So, let's see. Fact -- check the records: America's most highly decorated soldier in Korea. Fact: As a lone individual he fought CBS and by proxy the highest elements of the US Army--- and won--- actually got the law changed in what lawyers call a "state of mind case". Once he won that battle, his lawyers wanted him to sue for money ---he turned it down!! Said he had made his point -- and clearing his name was all he wanted --- did not want to sue for money! Fact: The US Army admitted that what they had said about him was a lie-- and that everything he said about the atrocities was correct. Fact: Until he reported the atrocities he was one of the fastest promoted officers in the army--- He made Lt Col in 12 years! He sacrificed his career to see that the US Army not be allowed to commit atrocities. How many folks do you know who will give up a fast track career to see justice done? And yes, he is still around--- and at age 79 his mind and his body can challenge most thirty somethings --- I know-- just spent a week with him. It is a shame America does not have more like him. In my humble opinion, he is the greatest American soldier since WWII-- not just as a fighter --- but as a man of honesty and integrity. End of sermon.

[Ken White]

with anything that might remotely be construed as negative, perhaps one of you would be kind enough to tell me what comment or assertion I made:

Which "...has a slant to which attack or defend..." Herbert..

or:

That I said that fits this description: "It is interesting how many people comment on Herbert without any facts."

Seems to me offense is being taken where none was offered -- and over six months after the fact at that.

[jmm99]

but, since the SCOTUS decision was mentioned, the following might be of interest to some here:

Summay of case

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1978/1978_77_1105/

Transcript of oral argument

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/...1105/argument/

Opinion of Court (by Whizzer White, also not bad as a weightlifter & a tough half-court b-ball player)

http://supreme.justia.com/us/441/153/case.html

Also read his book, but that was a long time ago.

[jmm99]

After the 1979 SCOTUS decision - which was solely a procedural decision on the scope of discovery & which said nada on the merits of Herbert's case or on the merits of Herbert himself - the libel case went back to Fed Dist Ct.

That court dismissed much of Herbert's case - which BTW was for money damages because that is the legal remedy for defamation (whether libel or slander).

The case was then appealed to the Fed 2nd Cir Ct of App, which flipped the rest of his case. That opinion (which does discuss the merits to some extent) held:

IV. CONCLUSION
52
Accordingly, the judgment of the district court is affirmed in part, reversed in part, and remanded with instructions that summary judgment be entered for defendants and the complaint be dismissed.

http://legal.rights.com/F.2d/781/781...4.569.570.html

Herbert then appealed to SCOTUS, but with cert denied. As noted in this later case, the 781 F2d decision continued as established precedent in the 2nd Circuit.

In contrast to the incremental harm doctrine, the subsidiary meaning doctrine has not been rejected by the Supreme Court, and thus, under Herbert v. Lando, 781 F.2d 298 (2d Cir.), cert. denied, 476 U.S. 1182 (1986), is still the law in this Circuit.

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets...dismissal.html

So, whatever the facts might be as to Herbert himself, these are the facts of judicial record.

[Ernie Webb]

Ernie Webb here --- back again. the first -- and last time--- I came here , I responded about some remarks about Tony Herbert. Then I decided to not come back to this site-- however, Tony called me -- somehow cannot get into this network --- and asked that I respond to a couple of remarks:
1. Tony has never been arrested on charges of cutting in line and using a false ID ---
2. Tony does not know any Reifsnyder---- and does not recall anything about a greenramp=--- where in his book does he describe an altercation with this guy?
3. Now -- my 2 cents again--- Whenever anyone appears bigger than life, there will always be discussions around whether or not the individual is real --- I accept that-----what I have difficulty understanding is ---when someone has the courage to speak up about problems within the system--- why look for his potential flaws? Would to God someone had spoken up early about Abu Gharif (spelling ?)--- The army has publicly admitted that all of Herbert's charges were substantiated--- and the army has admitted that the argument they presented against him was all fabricated. The moral decay in our national and military leadership comes from too many folks not speaking up --- as one old politician once said -- and I paraphrase --- "For evil to triump , all it takes is for good men to remain silent."
4. I now leave this debate for better things --- Jack and Coke ( in a tall glass) and a Monte Cristo Cigar --- sunsets here in the panhandle of Florida are lovely right now. You are all invited to join me-- any time

[Ken White]

2. Tony does not know any Reifsnyder---- and does not recall anything about a greenramp=--- where in his book does he describe an altercation with this guy?

As I'm the one that said that -- the other items you mention I have no knowledge of or comment on.

To refresh, here's my original statement:""And I did see Herbert's interplay with another Major named Reifsnyder at Green Ramp -- it was not the way Herbert told it in the book.""

Note I said interplay -- you and Herbert say altercation.

As for Reifsnyder, he was a QM Major at Bragg. I knew him as a result of the two of us attending a school. I saw a brief set to at Green Ramp (at Bragg) which does not necessarily mean that either knew the name of the other. I'm old ('bout as old as Herbert) so my memory could be playing tricks but I was at time of the previous writing on this thread and still am pretty sure Herbert mentioned it in 'Soldier.' However, I cannot cite the page number or quote the comment so I'll have to get another copy of the book as I gave my original purchase away many years ago.

I'll look for a copy of the book and and get back to this thread. It may be a few days or even a week or more. If I'm wrong, I have no problem apologizing. If...

[Ken White]

As I'm the one that said that -- the other items you mention I have no knowledge of or comment on.

To refresh, here's my original statement:""And I did see Herbert's interplay with another Major named Reifsnyder at Green Ramp -- it was not the way Herbert told it in the book.""

Note I said interplay -- you and Herbert say altercation.

As for Reifsnyder, he was a QM Major at Bragg. I knew him as a result of the two of us attending a school. I saw a brief set to at Green Ramp (at Bragg) which does not necessarily mean that either knew the name of the other. I'm old ('bout as old as Herbert) so my memory could be playing tricks but I was at time of the previous writing on this thread and still am pretty sure Herbert mentioned it in 'Soldier.' However, I cannot cite the page number or quote the comment so I'll have to get another copy of the book as I gave my original purchase away many years ago.

I'll look for a copy of the book and and get back to this thread. It may be a few days or even a week or more. If I'm wrong, I have no problem apologizing. If...

Ernie:

Been to the big city over Christmas, looked for the book there as well as here and was unable to find it. Do not propose to waste any more effort on a non-issue. I know what I saw but cannot recall precisely -- in fact hardly at all -- what was written in Soldier, so if I misquoted or stated erroneously something that I thought Herbert wrote, my apologies to him.

Have another Jack and Monte Christo. Take care.

[jmm99]

Here are the links to the hardcover and softcover.

I'd suggest that defenders of Herbert, if they post here, quote exactly from the book and cite which version by page. Then, if anyone is interested, they can buy the book and check the context.

I've posted (above) all I found of the links to the judicial decisions in the case - which found what they found and decided what they decided.

If reference is made to extra-judicial material (congressional, UCMJ, etc.), the exact quotes and links should be provided. In this type of case, hearsay recollections of what COL Herbert said are not helpful.

[Ken White]

Finding books on the internet, out of print or not, is relatively easy. This was not that big a deal and I saw and see no sense in ordering it over a casual comment. Since Ernie cared enough to come back, I figured least I could do was care enough to see if I could find a copy to skim. Didn't. That should close the issue IMO. It does for me...

Lots of things are not helpful. Is hearsay in legal terms the same as flawed memory due to too much bourbon over too many years???

[Shelley]

I knew Tony Herbert in the early Eighties from the Upper East Side neighborhood around 85th and York where we shared a hang-out called October's. When I first met him and got to talking, I took everything he said with a grain of salt, 'cause his tales were indeed taller than most...and, you never know what is reliable in a bar room conversation. I did, however, check him out with a colleague who was the Editor of the Military Book Club. I then got him a list of publications where he could get his publishers to advertise his new book. My conversations with Tony Herbert were always "eye-openers" for me. He was a maverick with an independent mind. I quickly came to trust and respect his opinions, experience. As I am originally from India, his insights into the Indo-Pak wars were of interest to me. As were his observations of the Arab-Israeli Wars.

[Limburglar]

I want to thank all you old ####ers! My Dad is my hero (MACV 65-66). Your Grand-kids may not know about your service, but you're still appreciated.

Sincerely,
David
173rd Airborne Brigade
Iraq 2003-2004

[Sgt PJ]

I was in Alpha Company,2nd Battalion,173rd Airborne from Oct-68 to Nov-69 as the company/brigade RTO and had the privilage of meeting Col Herbert a few times when he came out to the field to talk to my Company Commander Cpt Forepaugh .I was highly impressed with him and his no BS do what we have to do to win attitude,He made the company commanders do alot of things they weren't used to doing, Like having the CP's ( command post ) people pull ambush everynight.He told us we work and move when the enemy is working/moving and that's usually at night.His MO was Ambush,Ambush,Ambush.And to put out the maximun Ambush sites out every night. So we would Ambush all night and try to get some rest during the day when we weren't doing other daytime operations and thats why we ( 2nd Batt ) had the highest body count in the brigade. Plus he cared about his men.When we would do search and destroy missions he wouldn't just fly around over us in his C&C ship watching. He would land and get out and walk through the village with us to see how we were doing.Always willing to get involved an lead by example.I always thought of him as the "Patton" of the Vietnam War.He was a soldiers soldier, a Great Man and i would follow him anywhere.And would love to meet him again.

[runner3344]

I read Soldier while in High School and to this day have 2 copies. One hardback and a paperback signed by LTC Herbert. He was one of the inspirations that convinced me to join the military. I became a Infantry Airborne NCO and still serve to this day. While in high school in 1988 I met a civillian who was working at Ft. Benning. During a shoot the bull session one evening the talk revolved around Military books to read. I mentioned Soldier and the man told me he knew LTC Herbert, having served as a NCO in his BN. He stated that LTC Herbert was the one of the best Officers the Army had back then. He stated that LTC Herbert was the poster for the Squared away Ranger officer and that the men very much respected him. He also said that soldiers wanted to be in his BN due to atmosphere that LTC Herbert projected. This guy couldnt say enough good things about him. It is to bad we dont have many Officers of that caliber and with the integrity displayed by men such as Herbert and Hackworth. We could sure use them. They understood that the Army(Infantry) has but one function. To win our wars. Not to be a cultural experiment to see if women can be infantrymen. Do you think for one minute they would have stood by and not spoken up? I dont.

[Bob's World]

I enjoyed Herbert's book as well. Then, in the Q-Course I served with a warrant officer candidate who had been a LRRP in the 173rd while Herbert was there and shared another perspective. Never met the man myself. Some men naturally draw admirers and distractors in equal number I guess.

For what it's worth though, body counts may well have been the measure of a BN CDR in Vietnam, but they were no path to victory. I don't read great war stories much anymore, and spend a lot more time thinking about why these great warriors were deployed in the first place, and how we might have better set them up for success.

[Bill Moore]

I read his book in High School, so that was a few decades ago, but I do recall it inspiring me at the time, but I recall his negative comments about Special Forces and how Rangers were superior. Not really having much of a clue of what SF did, I just accepted his comments at face value at the time. After joining the service and especially since joining SF I ran into a lot of good officers who had the LTC Herbert philisophy. I learned to put it in perspective over time. LTC Herbert was a great warrior and a great leader who inspired his soldiers to conduct effective combat operations in Korea and Vietnam. On the other hand he didn't seem to understand or perhaps more accurately see the Army's role in waging Special Warfare where the focus was more on achieving political and psychological objectives. The body count may be relevant to achieving those goals, but I never got the since that he saw it that way.

In summary I think he was one our greatest warriors and a good leader, but different leadership styles are appropriate for different situations. He we were fighting the communist hordes charging south from North Korea I would like to serve under him. If our focus was a civil action program to help pacify a region then his leadership style may be more disruptive than helpful.