Virtual Militias

[SteveMetz]

I'm really fascinated by the emergence of virtual militias which take on terrorists, insurgents, etc. in the virtual battlespace. Here's one example.

Thoughts on them?

[slapout9]

The TV show 60 min. has done one or two shows about theses types of groups. One was actually the mother or sister or some relative of a service member. She kept finding things the pros could not find...had a few death threats sent her way to as I remember... but that didn't stop her. I agree with you Steve these groups could be a true 5th column. Acheiving effects far beyond there costs to support.

[selil]

The costs are virtually nill, but there are issues. In a nutshell if you empower these groups that are working in the best interest of the nation state are you not also empowering the delegation of nation state powers? Thereby weakening the beneficiary of the volunteer effort? There are other issues, but as long as they remain in the soft power category and out of the kinetic business most treaties and laws don't apply.

I imagine Dr. Metz the fact they found your writing interesting helps a little.

[SteveMetz]

The costs are virtually nill, but there are issues. In a nutshell if you empower these groups that are working in the best interest of the nation state are you not also empowering the delegation of nation state powers? Thereby weakening the beneficiary of the volunteer effort? There are other issues, but as long as they remain in the soft power category and out of the kinetic business most treaties and laws don't apply.

I imagine Dr. Metz the fact they found your writing interesting helps a little.

I sometimes resonate with unusual people.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shad...roject066.html

http://newdawnmagazine.com.au/Articl..._Part_One.html

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/lammer1.htm

[wm]

I sometimes resonate with unusual people.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shad...roject066.html

http://newdawnmagazine.com.au/Articl..._Part_One.html

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/lammer1.htm

Steve,
Everyone needs a godfather, sometimes even one with a Gamecock banner at his back (especially if they aren't Clemson or Citadel alums).

[marct]

Hi Sam,

The costs are virtually nill, but there are issues. In a nutshell if you empower these groups that are working in the best interest of the nation state are you not also empowering the delegation of nation state powers? Thereby weakening the beneficiary of the volunteer effort? There are other issues, but as long as they remain in the soft power category and out of the kinetic business most treaties and laws don't apply.

Good points, but I'm not sure how much delegation effect they are having. First off, the nation state has already "delegated" large amounts of sovereignty to trans-national bodies (including private firms). Historically, the US has also delegated an incredible number of sovereign powers to private groups as well (e.g. bounty hunters). I don't think that you an state that the sole beneficiary of the effort is the nation state (which you sort of implied above).

There's another factor playing out in this as well - put simply, nation states are increasingly incompetent at meeting the needs of their people, and many of these needs are now devolved and/or devolving to sub-state groups. This seems to be a fairly long standing trend going back to the late 1960's or so and it seems to be operating across the full spectrum of functions (think neo-tribalism in a globalized context). I think it is pretty much inevitable that groups like this will spring up.

Marc

[slapout9]

There's another factor playing out in this as well - put simply, nation states are increasingly incompetent at meeting the needs of their people, and many of these needs are now devolved and/or devolving to sub-state groups. This seems to be a fairly long standing trend going back to the late 1960's or so and it seems to be operating across the full spectrum of functions (think neo-tribalism in a globalized context). I think it is pretty much inevitable that groups like this will spring up.

Marc

Marct, very important point.

[wm]

Hi Sam,



Good points, but I'm not sure how much delegation effect they are having. First off, the nation state has already "delegated" large amounts of sovereignty to trans-national bodies (including private firms). Historically, the US has also delegated an incredible number of sovereign powers to private groups as well (e.g. bounty hunters). I don't think that you an state that the sole beneficiary of the effort is the nation state (which you sort of implied above).

There's another factor playing out in this as well - put simply, nation states are increasingly incompetent at meeting the needs of their people, and many of these needs are now devolved and/or devolving to sub-state groups. This seems to be a fairly long standing trend going back to the late 1960's or so and it seems to be operating across the full spectrum of functions (think neo-tribalism in a globalized context). I think it is pretty much inevitable that groups like this will spring up.

Marc

Marc,

A big difference historically was overt governmental recognition involved in the delegation, at least in the US--things like letters of marque and reprisal being granted to privateers, posses being sworn and issued badges come to mind. I believe that Neighborhood Watch organizations have to do some kind of registration with local law enforcement too. I'm not sure that the folks Selil has in mind have that same approval. In fact I seem to recall a case of a guy being fired from his job and prosecuted for overstepping in a "cyber-sleuthing" effort involving Chinese interests.

The issue raised in your second paragraph is one that I find much more important and see it as having a lot of explanatory power for the current "devolution" of large nation states, which is following a 350 year aggregation of smaller jurisdictions into the national "empires of the 20th Century--only a few (the US, China, India,)are now left and they actually came on to the scene as "nations" quite late after the process began in Europe. Kosovo splitting from Serbia, the Baltic states, White Russians, Ukrines, and the -Stans all splitting with Moscow, are part of the swing of the pendulum that moves between the extremes of centralization and decentralization as the "right" way to meet perceived human needs. Isn't Scotland trying to repudiate the Act of Union?

[marct]

Hi Wayne,

A big difference historically was overt governmental recognition involved in the delegation, at least in the US--things like letters of marque and reprisal being granted to privateers, posses being sworn and issued badges come to mind. I believe that Neighborhood Watch organizations have to do some kind of registration with local law enforcement too. I'm not sure that the folks Selil has in mind have that same approval. In fact I seem to recall a case of a guy being fired from his job and prosecuted for overstepping in a "cyber-sleuthing" effort involving Chinese interests.

We had the same thing here, although the situation was compounded (possibly confounded ) by the traditional rights of the gentry and aristocracy (and boy does THAT sound weird coming from Canada!). Under a monarchy, the different classes had both rights and obligations - almost a form of shared sovereignty as it were. While the vast majority of that has disappeared, you can still see parts of it running around.

I would suspect that the crowd Selil is talking about don't have official recognition, but do have cultural recognition via your militia meme (i.e. self organization for self-defense as a recognized "right").

The issue raised in your second paragraph is one that I find much more important and see it as having a lot of explanatory power for the current "devolution" of large nation states, which is following a 350 year aggregation of smaller jurisdictions into the national "empires of the 20th Century--only a few (the US, China, India,)are now left and they actually came on to the scene as "nations" quite late after the process began in Europe. Kosovo splitting from Serbia, the Baltic states, White Russians, Ukrines, and the -Stans all splitting with Moscow, are part of the swing of the pendulum that moves between the extremes of centralization and decentralization as the "right" way to meet perceived human needs. Isn't Scotland trying to repudiate the Act of Union?

That's my guess also. I'm not sure how it will play out in the long run, but I have a suspicion that we will see some form of "Imperial" layer added on top of increasingly small nation states - probably a sub-set of the UN, but also larger than the EU. Then again, it is also possible that we could see a fragmentation into "Imperial" factions along the NAU, EU, ASEAN, China, etc. line - sort of a reversion to te organizational style and form of the last half of the 19th century. I wouldn't want to bet either way right now.

[Ken White]

old wall for almost 100 years. The fact is that politicians have been seduced into attempting to provide all things to all people in order to protect their incumbency and feather their bank accounts. It's an appealing concept to many as it allows them to wander through life with no responsibilities and all can simply ask at every turn "What's the government going to do about this?" A worldwide culture of dependency has developed and is fostered by these same politicians who do not want people to think -- thinking people, after all, ask embarassing questions. Note the general decline in Education outcomes in teenagers worldwide...

Since it does possess some appeal it is a difficult concept for those that refuse to think past next week and the political and chattering classes shortsightedly continue to pursue the chimera of ever larger government that is all things to all people. That is patently impossible and, even were it possible, it is absolutely not affordable.

Thus, the Pols are in process of destroying the very thing that provides their livelihood. The result has been the trend noted by all above to smaller and hopefully more effective entities of governance and the fractures are quite predictably on cultural and ethnic lines.

Personally, I'm all for it. Want a Kurdistan? Good idea. Unfortunately, people do not like change and the Pols don't want to see their livelihood frittered away so much of the world will resist such fragmentation. Putin's (and others...) reaction to Kosovo is typical.

They probably ought to get over it. Confronted with devolution in all the places we have cited in this thread and looking at dozens of other places around the world, my suspicion is that the Stateus Giganticus will disappear and be replaced by dozens of Statelets and a series of Confederations as Marc posits (and which will, I'll bet, be somewhat xenophobic and disinclined toward 'multiculturalism') -- and, hopefully, that will happen before the World government fans can achieve their goal. Mankind will be much better off for that...

That of course ties into Steve's basic question and much of the comment above -- if the Guvmint is perceived as not doing something well (or even as some would prefer) then people will react in conglomerations to fill that vacuum. Good for them.

Shame the ruling milieus can't realize that...

[J Wolfsberger]

I'm really fascinated by the emergence of virtual militias which take on terrorists, insurgents, etc. in the virtual battlespace. Here's one example.

Thoughts on them?

I think it is an insurgent counterinsurgency.

(And my tongue was not in my cheek as I wrote this.)

Furthermore, I think they have a critical role to play. A great deal of what has been published in the MSM has been propoganda. It is impossible for the US Government to effectively counter it. That is the role these groups can fill.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Saw this on Twitter this morning. Some of you may have heard it.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/04/132634...w#commentBlock

In the years since that cyberassault, Estonia has distinguished itself once again: Now it is a model for how a country might defend itself during a cyberwar. The responsibility would fall to a force of programmers, computer scientists and software engineers who make up a Cyber Defense League, a volunteer organization that in wartime would function under a unified military command.

"[Our] league brings together specialists in cyberdefense who work in the private sector as well as in different government agencies," Defense Minister Jaak Aaviksoo says. The force carries out regular weekend exercises, Aaviksoo says, "to prepare for possible cyber contingencies."

The unit is but one division of Estonia's Total Defense League, an all-volunteer paramilitary force dedicated to maintaining the country's security and preserving its independence.

What lessons can an Estonian Civilian Irregular Information Defense Group, or Cyber Defense League within the Estonian Total Defense League, teach American Computer Network Defenders?

[selil]

I met last June with the CO of the Estonian Defence League (actually had dinner with him and his XO). I also met with the Defence Minister at a meet and greet. While I was in Estonian I was giving a presentation titled "Cyber warfare: As a form of low-intensity conflict and insurgency" which definitely plays out similar to what is discussed in the article. Rain Ottis gave a similar talk titled "From Pitchforks to laptops: Volunteers in cyber conflicts".

Many ideas of the concepts of levee' en masse are present in the European strategy to solve issues in cyberspace. Whereas, here in the United States I can't even think of talking to the bastion of cyber wizardry known as the NSA (now bow towards Ft. Meade). I can discuss with a much wider group of talented individuals options and success strategies in Europe. The European model though flawed in many ways is much more a distributed capability thereby giving much more power to the individual and empowering the state through resilience.

I gave credit to Small Wars Journal in my talk and several members of the council. There is a severe disconnect between the study of conflict and the study of cyber capability. I need schooled on the conflict, but understand the cyber quite well. Bringing together these two populations you would think would be easy. Not so much.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Conscripting Cyber Experts to Protect IT Infrastructure

http://blogs.govinfosecurity.com/posts.php?postID=840

Defense Minister Jaak Aaviksoo says it's so important for Estonia to have a skilled cyber army that the authorities may institute a draft to assure every IT expert is available in a national emergency:

"We are thinking of introducing this conscript service, a cyber service. This is an idea that we've been playing around [with]. We don't have the mechanism or laws in place, but it might be one option."

Estonian CND is pretty cool, but how much of what they do in Estonia could Americans do in America?

Our new Civilian National Security Force that's just as big and just as well funded as our military might consider drafting all the skiddies who signed up for Low Orbit Ion Cannon.

[Stan]

Sam,
Sadly we couldn't get together during your stay (being made aware of your visit from our SWC agent in Sweden (M1)

One of the things with conflict and cyber wizardry in Estonia is a serious generation gap. The older folks spend an enormous amount of time and energy preparing for Russia's return and the youth behind a monitor. Trying to teach someone how to use a spreadsheet is just as challenging to explain and employ as is emergency preparedness to teenagers.

I hope they start concentrating on internet fraud before someone slips in the back door and takes all our Euros

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Happy New Year!

What does SWC's man in Estonia care to share about the Total Defense League?

Kaitseliit

[Stan]

Happy New Year!

What does SWC's man in Estonia care to share about the Total Defense League?

Kaitseliit

Happy New Year to you too !

There are actually two SWC men in Estonia (Kaur is lurking about or back to his real job east of here )

That's a difficult question. My previous experience with the Defense League in 95 was mixed. Kind of reminded me of an extremely under-financed militia (some Estonians reminisced of the 1940s and called them the Forest Brothers). Back in 95 (similar to 1940) they were poorly equipped and disorganized as the country was trying hard to concentrate on active duty forces, leaving their national guardsmen to hover for funding. But that didn't stop the League from training and maneuvers where possible. I would later learn that many of my friends and associates were reserve members and were quite active within their assigned units.

In the 1940s the so-called Forest Brothers were responsible for more Russian officer (single shot) kills than any other military unit to include SS death squads. They couldn't afford to squander ammo nor spend too much time in the AO. They adapted well to both the terrain and their own shortcomings (Estonian's rarely whine when the chips are down).

Although they financially fair much better today, most of the older folks tend to hang onto their tried-and-true traditions.

I can't comment much on the Cyber Defense League - just not my background nor interest.

[selil]

Happy New Year!

What does SWC's man in Estonia care to share about the Total Defense League?

Kaitseliit

I talked to them about their training. While I was there they were getting top notch training from SANS and others. They are also tied in with NSA, DOD directly, NATO, and a few other organizations around Europe. They have CCD COE there that is a government group, and several of their members are highly regarded here in the United States.

To quote the famous M1, Estonia is a small country with hot chicks. No wonder Stan and Kaur live there.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

IPT News
January 14, 2010

In the ever-changing conflict between the West and Islamist radicals, one front – the Internet – has emerged as a major battlefield. And, while in many areas of this frontier the Islamists strut about unchecked, one man, code-name th3j35t3r ("The Jester"), has made it his point to strike back with (cyber) force. As first reported by the security blog ThreatChaos, "The Jester" made a different kind of New Year's resolution than most: to wage war on jihadist and pro-Islamist websites and forums by systematically disrupting their servers via denial-of-service (DoS) attacks.

Also unlike most, he has made good on his promise thus far – and there is no sign that he will let up.



. . . Wherever one may stand on the issue of cyber-vigilantism – independent citizens taking matters into their own hands without the requisite knowledge of ongoing investigations utilizing that open-source data – it is clear that matters are shaping up just as Dorothy Denning predicted in an August 2008 article in Scientific American: "Soon, every interstate conflict, however minor, may be accompanied by some form of hacker war that is beyond the control of ruling governments."

Read more at: http://www.investigativeproject.org/...ho-should-lead

Is The Jester a Virtual Militia of One, or is he the Public Affairs/Psychological Operations face of a much larger Information Operation?

[anonamatic]

He's at best himself and a few others, & apparently a non-state actor. Sadly if this were anything more official it'd look more like bird watching than hunting.