"...end product of Western intellectual or social growth to Islamic permutations...", by stating this I had hoped to avoid the "but have you considered..." replies, given that we are discussing present state conditions, present day social values, and what is in front of us now.

Yes, as a Catholic I am intimately familiar with historic events which we, today, would find reprehensible. Including the treatment of the Jews throughout Europe, i.e. expulsion from Spain in 1492, etc. etc. Oftentimes when discussing these present day issues, there is a smidgen of moral equivalence, based upon distant past events that creeps into the conversation. I don't speak for the past, only for what we face today and into the forseeable future.

What is frequently ignored is that the Church's condemnation and actions against heresies were frequently to maintain social stability, not merely its authoritative position. Bakunins "Anarchists" had nothing on many of the heretical groups of that period. Even Martin Luther was indecisive about leaving the Church.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is in discussion that we re-confirm convictions and learn to speak with greater clarity. Tschuss.