Turkey's Steps?

[Steve Blair]

Thought this might be interest here. It will be interesting to see how far it goes or how long the attempt lasts.

The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.

And just as interesting...

Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy.

They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones.

"You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura.

"You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology.

"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."

Quotes taken from the BBC story.

[Tom Odom]

This is very interesting and only the Turks have the intestinal fortitude to even consider doing this. Kemalism can be a wonderously liberating thing

Tom

[slapout9]

SWJED put this up on another thread yesterday or the day before. This came up at the SMART Wars workshop I went to a couple of months ago. I posted a radio interview of Warden himself discussing this idea of how to influence Islam in this way. we suggested this and some other forms of publications to be distibuted to the population. Not bad for an Air Force guy It's in the Rings man it's all in the rings. ( Bill Moore you feeling me man ). Incindetally they were following our plan pretty close until they invaded Iraq...bad move....should have stopped at the border.

[Steve Blair]

Actually it's been discussed well before that (I think Marc might have mentioned something similar, and it's also been kicked around in other areas). It's important enough I thought it should have its own space.

The catch with "influencing Islam" is that it has to come from within. WE can't really do anything other than sit back and (very) quietly cheer from the sidelines. Anything else is subject to spin and manipulation (and I'm sure somewhere there's a group claiming that this is a CIA plot).

[slapout9]

Agree 100% Steve it has to come from them and we can not be directly involved but we can suggest it. Yes marct has brought up many ideas like this before. What I think is key is that this is truly aimed at acheiving a systems level effect not just a target level effect. Here is the link from SWJED post 2 days ago.

http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...0907#post40907

[Ron Humphrey]

Actually it's been discussed well before that (I think Marc might have mentioned something similar, and it's also been kicked around in other areas). It's important enough I thought it should have its own space.

The catch with "influencing Islam" is that it has to come from within. WE can't really do anything other than sit back and (very) quietly cheer from the sidelines. Anything else is subject to spin and manipulation (and I'm sure somewhere there's a group claiming that this is a CIA plot).

[Rob Thornton]

Last sentence:

"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."

This is one of those things that makes you hope we will see beyond what a government can do specifically for us, and consider how the efforts of the people who live there will effect the strategic landscape. Such efforts as these should be quietly and discreetly reinforced (and it may not be the U.S. who might be in the best position to do so), and where pratical lauded (practical in terms of remembering who we are and what we might represent by being too enthusiastic) - as Steve and Slap mentioned above.

Also from a strategic history perspective, we might do well to remember the course of the Reformation in Christianity - it was not instantaneous, it was not entirely passive, and it created social ripples which were not well understod for hundreds of years. While the article uses the the qualifier "reformation" like, the end quote still shows the understanding of the fundamental changes in perspectives this could lead to.

Change of this nature is often accompanied by violence once it gains enough momentum to threaten identity or authority. In today's inter-connected world, what begins in Turkey can have an effect in many other locations. While Turkey may be progressive and secure enough to moderate the potential for violence to levels that don't result in a slide toward instability, other states may not. An idea that is acceptable in Ankara, my cause an upheaval elsewhere. It may not be a visible flash fire, but like many challenges to central identity values, - it may evolve for awhile before we really know what it means.

Turkey has significant historical meaning to Islam - I'll be surprised if groups such as AQ do not contest it. I'll be surprised if its challenging of certain accepted passages in the Hadith, and the meanings which some derive authority from do not put it at odds with states such as Iran.

For our own part, perahps we should acknowledge the Turks desire to better understand its Faith, and their intellectual and spiritual courage to do so. Hopefully we can do it with seeming to be opportunistic, or exploiting in nature - to do so could set up a backlash that might put any such movement in jeapordy.

Best, Rob

[slapout9]

Hi Rob, yes and part of the article states that they chose the Hadith as opposed to the Koran to avoid certain obstacles like the ones you mention. And a reformation is not really the right word IMHO...more how Islam can better interface with the modern world as opposed to some earth shattering reformation. It may not even get off the ground either.

[Steve Blair]

To a certain extent, that's what the Christian Reformation did...allow the religion to interface better with the (for the time) modern world. I suspect it will get off the ground (and most likely has, given the tone of the article), but it's important that the "instant gratification" folks put on the strongest muzzle they can find and sit in the corner until it's done.

Something like this is going to take time, especially in a culture and framework where time has a different context and meaning than we typically use. And as Rob hints, there will be violence associated with it. I honestly don't think that can be debated. It might not happen in Turkey (where there is a working identity framework that can to an extent support such changes), but it will happen elsewhere. It's going to be hard for the West to keep focused on the context of these changes, IMO. We can only hinder them, not help them, if we get involved (or if it LOOKS LIKE we're getting involved).

[Tom Odom]

This without doubt the most impprtant step that Turkey has taken since Attaturk pulled the country off Sharia and put it on the path to modernization. For the greater Muslim world it offers a way to offset the stranglehold of fundamentalism while staying within accepted limits. Not only do we need to allow this to go forward without interference (including obvious cheerleading), we must be able to accept less than perfect results.

best
Tom

[BillClewis2]

Although it represents Turkey's future hopes for continued sane interaction with the West, Kemalism, and its stridency, is dying as a character ethic in Turkey. One only has to be informed of the increased ascendancy of Islamism in the Parliament and governmental institutions to know the direction of the country. After decades of trying to satisfy both camps, East and West, it is slowly being pulled back to its pre-revolutionary mindset. I have many Turkish friends who agree the writing is on the wall.

[AmericanPride]

Although it represents Turkey's future hopes for continued sane interaction with the West, Kemalism, and its stridency, is dying as a character ethic in Turkey. One only has to be informed of the increased ascendancy of Islamism in the Parliament and governmental institutions to know the direction of the country. After decades of trying to satisfy both camps, East and West, it is slowly being pulled back to its pre-revolutionary mindset. I have many Turkish friends who agree the writing is on the wall.

I'd have to do a little more research on the power structure in Turkey, but this seems like (1) a bid by the government to head-off Islamic revival in the country in anticipation of further social adjustment, or (2) an attempt by Erdoğan's faction (the Department is subordinated to the Prime Minister's office) to make the politicalization of Islam more appealing to the population-at-large in light of the political and legal events prior to the announcement. Either way, it's a state-driven event and we have to be careful in our assessment about which interests it represents.

We can't forget also that the Christian reformation took place in a complex political environment complemented by a stagnate, but loosening, economic and social order. Much of Protestantism's success was a result of political exploitation; German princes and other rulers anxious to break the influence of the Church harnessed the independence that Protestant theology enabled -- and with a bit of luck, managed to win decisive battles against Catholic-inspired armies. The situation in Turkey is vastly different, and I don't think we should be optimistic about its potential.

As a result of Turkey's state secularism, cultural history, and ethnic separation from the Middle East, is the credibility of the revision already undermined in other Islamic countries (particularly the Arab World)? Because of the centralized nature of Islamic states (specifically in the Middle East and North Africa), what is the likelihood that the spirit of reformation will ever reach the Arab street?

[BillClewis2]

I'd have to do a little more research on the power structure in Turkey, but this seems like (1) a bid by the government to head-off Islamic revival in the country in anticipation of further social adjustment, or (2) an attempt by Erdoğan's faction (the Department is subordinated to the Prime Minister's office) to make the politicalization of Islam more appealing to the population-at-large in light of the political and legal events prior to the announcement. Either way, it's a state-driven event and we have to be careful in our assessment about which interests it represents.

We can't forget also that the Christian reformation took place in a complex political environment complemented by a stagnate, but loosening, economic and social order. Much of Protestantism's success was a result of political exploitation; German princes and other rulers anxious to break the influence of the Church harnessed the independence that Protestant theology enabled -- and with a bit of luck, managed to win decisive battles against Catholic-inspired armies. The situation in Turkey is vastly different, and I don't think we should be optimistic about its potential.

As a result of Turkey's state secularism, cultural history, and ethnic separation from the Middle East, is the credibility of the revision already undermined in other Islamic countries (particularly the Arab World)? Because of the centralized nature of Islamic states (specifically in the Middle East and North Africa), what is the likelihood that the spirit of reformation will ever reach the Arab street?

There are no historinc/cultural equivalents within Islam to the Reformation or Enlightenment, especially with regard to true toleration of minority religions (see dhimmitude...). Equating the basis or end product of Western intellectual or social growth to Islamic permutations is a non-starter.

Erdogan had his origins in outlawed radical Islamist parties. When he and his fellow travelers were set back by Kemalist devotees, he simply took the long-view. Going slower in ones efforts to "reform" the system does not mean those efforts will not continue. Each gain merely confirms the expectation for more.

Immigration will be the core issue for Turkey's entrance into the EU, not its religious history. After that is ultimately denied them, the Turkish peoples will resentfully feel discrimiated against and will begin to listen to the "We told you so..." rhetoric of the firebrands.

[marct]

Hi Bill,

There are no historinc/cultural equivalents within Islam to the Reformation or Enlightenment, especially with regard to true toleration of minority religions (see dhimmitude...). Equating the basis or end product of Western intellectual or social growth to Islamic permutations is a non-starter.

First, while you are correct that there are no equivalents, there are analogs. If you actually examine the Reformation period closely, you will notice that it was composed of a whole slew of social-religious movements operating outside of the Catholic Church. Many of these were quite similar to modern day al Queada, such as the Fraticelli, while others were more rooted in popular unrest (e.g. such as der Deutsche Bauernkrieg and Hizbolla).

As far as tolerance of minority religions is concerned, consider the provisions of the Peace of Augsburg and the specific provisions of the principle of Cuius regio, eius religio - they only applied to Catholics and Lutherans; a situation that is quite analogous to the various agreements between Sh'ia and Sunni. If you want to talk about Dhimmitude, consider how the Holy Roman Emperors dealt with the Jewish population of Prague, how the American government dealt with the Mormons in the 1850'-80's, or how the Texas court system deals with custody issues amongst neo-pagan witches today.

Marc