Turkey's Steps?

[marct]

Hi Rob,

Also from a strategic history perspective, we might do well to remember the course of the Reformation in Christianity - it was not instantaneous, it was not entirely passive, and it created social ripples which were not well understod for hundreds of years. While the article uses the the qualifier "reformation" like, the end quote still shows the understanding of the fundamental changes in perspectives this could lead to.

Oh, my... been practicing "understatement" as a discursive genre ? Yeah, given that the history of reformation moves inside the Catholic Church parallels most of the military history of the same time period, "not entirely passive" is a phrase that is just so.... "British" !

Overall I'd classify the role as "supporting", but at times in related efforts - such as ensuring AQ and like organizations (or other regional players) do not have the strategic freedom of movement to disrupt this effort to further qualify itself over time - a more engaged role may be required.

Agreed - my guess is about 100-200 years. Turkey is an excellent start point, but there are also other areas we should be looking at in this situation: Dubai and Brunei come to mind.

I think this is where the term "Grand Strategy" comes into play - that gets us beyond the sole use of military strategy to help us and our friends, partners and allies acheive their goals (in this case the freedom to conduct its own affairs). This won't be easy for us, we don't have a form of government that lends itself to unified purposes - we are purposefully at odds with ourselves in many ways. Minimizing the potential internal disruptions we might represent will be tough I think - we're not culturally attuned to letting things develop if they seems be in our interest to intervene - demonstrating strategic patience will be tough.

Again, agreed. It is unfortunate that democracies and republics are notoriously poor at Grand Strategy on the whole - at least when they are in a "major player" spot (it works better when you are a minor player).

[Tom Odom]

Agreed - my guess is about 100-200 years. Turkey is an excellent start point, but there are also other areas we should be looking at in this situation: Dubai and Brunei come to mind.

Maybe, Marc, but Dubai still is tied to Arabic in a way that is self-limiting. Brunei I just don't have a feel for. I will say this, however, that if he Turks go foward with this, they are very likely to much faster than we might expect. I also believe that a "reformed" hadith would be well recieved in some areas of Africa.

Best

Tom

[marct]

Hi Tom,

Maybe, Marc, but Dubai still is tied to Arabic in a way that is self-limiting. Brunei I just don't have a feel for. I will say this, however, that if he Turks go foward with this, they are very likely to much faster than we might expect. I also believe that a "reformed" hadith would be well recieved in some areas of Africa.

I think for me, looking at it as an Anthropologist, the key is in a) the desire to reconsider / reinterpret religious doctrine and b) the process set in place to do so. Turkey is doing it in a fairly systematic, centralized manner. Dubai is doing it via "lived reality" and at the insistence of it's monarch, and Brunei did several decades ago in response to too much wealth. The key, for me, is that they are all engaged with "current reality" in some stance of negotiation. This parallels a lot of reformation history with different groups dealing with the rise of modern nation states, new technologies and new patterns of social interaction.

That 150-200 years was based on the acceptance within Islam as a whole of these "new" forms of Islam (i.e. that they actually are part of Islam, even if viewed as "wrong").

[Rob Thornton]

Oh, my... been practicing "understatement" as a discursive genre ?

I'm exploring new techniques (well new to me anyway)

I was thinking about several things over lunch:

1) the role of patience and "inaction" - sometimes doing nothing can be seen as doing something - particularly if you have the means to choose otherwise. Strategic restraint might be an "action" to match a chosen narrative. However, its also worth noting that great efforts might be required to restrain the impulse to act.

2) the second thing was the inter-connectedness. The BBC as the source - and the many Muslims who reside in the EU and other than the ME. The media will certainly play a role.

3) the broader socio-politico changes that accompany movements that call for change in fundamental understandings of how we view the world. This week we were all talking about the declaration of Kosovo, and what that might mean in a broader sense - is there a broader theme we're overlooking because we're participants?

Best, Rob

[marct]

Hi Rob,

1) the role of patience and "inaction" - sometimes doing nothing can be seen as doing something - particularly if you have the means to choose otherwise. Strategic restraint might be an "action" to match a chosen narrative. However, its also worth noting that great efforts might be required to restrain the impulse to act.

I'm with the Buddhists on this one - non-action is a choice and form of action. Rather than structuring the political question as "What can we do to help", I think it should be structured as "Is there any way in which you would like us to help?".

2) the second thing was the inter-connectedness. The BBC as the source - and the many Muslims who reside in the EU and other than the ME. The media will certainly play a role.

Too true!

3) the broader socio-politico changes that accompany movements that call for change in fundamental understandings of how we view the world. This week we were all talking about the declaration of Kosovo, and what that might mean in a broader sense.

One of my favorite sayings is "I am the wisest man I know, for I know that I know nothing." (I love Socrates despite his [mis-]appropriation by that fascist Plato ). It takes no courage to say "This is the truth!!!" and try to force others to accept it, but it takes an immense amount of courage to say "I don't know" and then try to find out. Personally, I am hoping that Al-Ghazali is currently reincarnated and working on an updated version of the Iḥyaʾ ʿulum al-dīn.

[slapout9]

1) the role of patience and "inaction" - sometimes doing nothing can be seen as doing something - particularly if you have the means to choose otherwise. Strategic restraint might be an "action" to match a chosen narrative. However, its also worth noting that great efforts might be required to restrain the impulse to act.
Best, Rob

That is exactly right. As long as you are alive and an open(living) system doing nothing is actually doing something as opposed to a closed(dead) system which by defenition can not adapt or choose.


I just re-read that...it's all Zen like and stuff....part of SBW.