Turkey's Steps?

[AmericanPride]

Although it represents Turkey's future hopes for continued sane interaction with the West, Kemalism, and its stridency, is dying as a character ethic in Turkey. One only has to be informed of the increased ascendancy of Islamism in the Parliament and governmental institutions to know the direction of the country. After decades of trying to satisfy both camps, East and West, it is slowly being pulled back to its pre-revolutionary mindset. I have many Turkish friends who agree the writing is on the wall.

I'd have to do a little more research on the power structure in Turkey, but this seems like (1) a bid by the government to head-off Islamic revival in the country in anticipation of further social adjustment, or (2) an attempt by Erdoğan's faction (the Department is subordinated to the Prime Minister's office) to make the politicalization of Islam more appealing to the population-at-large in light of the political and legal events prior to the announcement. Either way, it's a state-driven event and we have to be careful in our assessment about which interests it represents.

We can't forget also that the Christian reformation took place in a complex political environment complemented by a stagnate, but loosening, economic and social order. Much of Protestantism's success was a result of political exploitation; German princes and other rulers anxious to break the influence of the Church harnessed the independence that Protestant theology enabled -- and with a bit of luck, managed to win decisive battles against Catholic-inspired armies. The situation in Turkey is vastly different, and I don't think we should be optimistic about its potential.

As a result of Turkey's state secularism, cultural history, and ethnic separation from the Middle East, is the credibility of the revision already undermined in other Islamic countries (particularly the Arab World)? Because of the centralized nature of Islamic states (specifically in the Middle East and North Africa), what is the likelihood that the spirit of reformation will ever reach the Arab street?

[BillClewis2]

I'd have to do a little more research on the power structure in Turkey, but this seems like (1) a bid by the government to head-off Islamic revival in the country in anticipation of further social adjustment, or (2) an attempt by Erdoğan's faction (the Department is subordinated to the Prime Minister's office) to make the politicalization of Islam more appealing to the population-at-large in light of the political and legal events prior to the announcement. Either way, it's a state-driven event and we have to be careful in our assessment about which interests it represents.

We can't forget also that the Christian reformation took place in a complex political environment complemented by a stagnate, but loosening, economic and social order. Much of Protestantism's success was a result of political exploitation; German princes and other rulers anxious to break the influence of the Church harnessed the independence that Protestant theology enabled -- and with a bit of luck, managed to win decisive battles against Catholic-inspired armies. The situation in Turkey is vastly different, and I don't think we should be optimistic about its potential.

As a result of Turkey's state secularism, cultural history, and ethnic separation from the Middle East, is the credibility of the revision already undermined in other Islamic countries (particularly the Arab World)? Because of the centralized nature of Islamic states (specifically in the Middle East and North Africa), what is the likelihood that the spirit of reformation will ever reach the Arab street?

There are no historinc/cultural equivalents within Islam to the Reformation or Enlightenment, especially with regard to true toleration of minority religions (see dhimmitude...). Equating the basis or end product of Western intellectual or social growth to Islamic permutations is a non-starter.

Erdogan had his origins in outlawed radical Islamist parties. When he and his fellow travelers were set back by Kemalist devotees, he simply took the long-view. Going slower in ones efforts to "reform" the system does not mean those efforts will not continue. Each gain merely confirms the expectation for more.

Immigration will be the core issue for Turkey's entrance into the EU, not its religious history. After that is ultimately denied them, the Turkish peoples will resentfully feel discrimiated against and will begin to listen to the "We told you so..." rhetoric of the firebrands.

[marct]

Hi Bill,

There are no historinc/cultural equivalents within Islam to the Reformation or Enlightenment, especially with regard to true toleration of minority religions (see dhimmitude...). Equating the basis or end product of Western intellectual or social growth to Islamic permutations is a non-starter.

First, while you are correct that there are no equivalents, there are analogs. If you actually examine the Reformation period closely, you will notice that it was composed of a whole slew of social-religious movements operating outside of the Catholic Church. Many of these were quite similar to modern day al Queada, such as the Fraticelli, while others were more rooted in popular unrest (e.g. such as der Deutsche Bauernkrieg and Hizbolla).

As far as tolerance of minority religions is concerned, consider the provisions of the Peace of Augsburg and the specific provisions of the principle of Cuius regio, eius religio - they only applied to Catholics and Lutherans; a situation that is quite analogous to the various agreements between Sh'ia and Sunni. If you want to talk about Dhimmitude, consider how the Holy Roman Emperors dealt with the Jewish population of Prague, how the American government dealt with the Mormons in the 1850'-80's, or how the Texas court system deals with custody issues amongst neo-pagan witches today.

Marc

[BillClewis2]

"...end product of Western intellectual or social growth to Islamic permutations...", by stating this I had hoped to avoid the "but have you considered..." replies, given that we are discussing present state conditions, present day social values, and what is in front of us now.

Yes, as a Catholic I am intimately familiar with historic events which we, today, would find reprehensible. Including the treatment of the Jews throughout Europe, i.e. expulsion from Spain in 1492, etc. etc. Oftentimes when discussing these present day issues, there is a smidgen of moral equivalence, based upon distant past events that creeps into the conversation. I don't speak for the past, only for what we face today and into the forseeable future.

What is frequently ignored is that the Church's condemnation and actions against heresies were frequently to maintain social stability, not merely its authoritative position. Bakunins "Anarchists" had nothing on many of the heretical groups of that period. Even Martin Luther was indecisive about leaving the Church.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is in discussion that we re-confirm convictions and learn to speak with greater clarity. Tschuss.