I still think a spot and stalk deer bowhunter is going to be the best we can field in woodsmanship (sic).
Good post. The instinct is indeed what it's
all about on this topic -- and that's pretty much a genetic thing and so is not to be mentioned in polite or politically correct company. The city / country divide isn't the issue; whether the hunter instinct is preserved in the DNA is...
Agree with you on training versus growing up with it.
As to your questions:Four words: Egos, risk aversion and bureaucracy."...why British troops today are expected to tackle Terrence, often with only snatch landrovers in support? Why superbly fit and very courageous RM etc are wasting time and losing bloody good men on endless foot patrols? Why it takes hours to get air support, when the opening play of any attack should be an airstrike? Why our boys are expected to "march up hills," without real-time and active gunship support? Why Terrence is frequently able to leg it away from contacts without getting cut off and then killed? Fire Force provided the solution to all this, while also giving us casevac (Medevac) facilities within a usual 7 minute window, and kill rates in excess of 116 to 1. But perhaps that is another story..."
You could amplify that by adding Armored vests make it hard to chase bad guys who have none.Sounds like a good plan to me......I agree 120mm, enough of the warrior crap. Now where`d I put my beer
I still think a spot and stalk deer bowhunter is going to be the best we can field in woodsmanship (sic).
Sam Liles
Selil Blog
Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.
An old lead hand of mine had tracked, stalked, and hunted since he was a kid. While most other guys were up in their stands waiting for a deer to come along, he was moving upwind down in the ravines and creek-beds with his bow, nailing deer at close quarters as they tried to hide amongst the cover. He could also catch wild turkey unawares often, a pretty tough thing to do with their hearing, and nail them on the spot with the shotgun or follow them underneath brush as they tried to escape, and then nail them as they broke free of the brush.
This guy clearly had the hunter's instinct, honed from a tender age, and he could frequently pull off feats that a lot of other hunters had rather more difficulty with - or wouldn't attempt in the first place, being content to stay in their stands or hunker down in their hides.
It used to be that not only did a lot of folks hunt, but in the Army, hunting was not just a social event. The old Jaeger regiments (admittedly a self-selecting elite) made frequent hunting a requirement for their officers, and even line regiments in many Armies considered hunting an important part of the professional formation of a young officer. In those days, hunting was a staple of basic fieldcraft training; I suspect that it could be used as such nowadays, albeit to a more limited extent. Certainly regular hunting would contribute more to the professional development of the officer, never mind the soldier, than attending regular meetings of the Rotary Club.
GaaaK. Bite thy tongue...
went to one -- never again...Originally Posted by Norfolk
Hunter or Mechanic?
I have to say that I am extremely sceptical of all the "Hunter/Jeager" stuff and I went into the Army as lad who had a pretty good "Shooting and Fishing" background. - and be warned, Fly Fishing is NOT a good way to meet hot chicks, when you are a teenager - unlike stealing cars and dealing drugs!
...but, my impression of modern soldiers is that solid and well honed trade skills is more useful than the "I can track a hamster through the leaf canopy," type of stuff that gets hyped. Those skills can best be accessed by leveraging the Indig, who may be persuaded to work for you. The IDF do not even try to teach tracking. They just hire the Bedouin.
I'd far rather have a Company of physically fit, technically skilled "tradesman" who understood radios, weapons, and their tactical application. - and could apply it to the terrain and population as required, than some bunch of "wood rangers" who may be out of their depth in down town "Bint Shed" at o'dark thirty in the AM.
I'm far more impressed with Snipers who can shoot, and use the radio, than someone who has all the Ghillie suit Ninja skills.
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
Ah the cultural divide between brits and americans.
Wilf, in America the hunter, ghillie suit ninjas ARE the tradesman, mechanics, and in general skilled labor force (class). There is a strong correlation between outdoors activities and tradesman status in America. Then again most of our soldiers enter service between 18 and 20 years and that doesn't allow for journeyman status in any trade. So what you get in skills are those few things picked up in post secondary education institutions, a smattering of unskilled labor types, and a lot of weekend after school sports. 40 year old brick layers and highly experienced electronic techs need not apply. I'd also think that a lot of "country boys" have been to the big city, but very few "city slickers" have been to the country. In America we call it public busing a strange and endearing concept. Imagine you're in Germany and you send your kids to France for school each day. In Colorado, Wyoming, Montana there are kids bussed every day over 100 miles each way (the most extreme cases I can find). They're not sending the kids to the countryside.
So I guess in the end you get ghillie suit ninjas that know what Lois Vuiton is...
Sam Liles
Selil Blog
Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.
Good point, Sam
And out here you get the combo. The ranch kid who's hunted forever and can also work on the combine and other major mechanical bits without batting an eye. They're also pretty self-reliant and can be counted on in a pinch to do what's right. Quite a few of them also show a strong ability to adapt to other situations (the "country kid" going to the city, perhaps...it's pretty common here).
Quite a few of the "city kids" we see here are totally out of their depth if they can't get a cell phone signal or find a Starbuck's within a three-block radius of their current position. Their technical skills are limited to downloading songs for the IPod, and on a good day they might be able to find their own asses without using Google Maps.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
From the CSIS Brief on Lebanon 2006 Posted by Jedburg hereMove into Hezbollah ambushes in obvious terrain areas; bunched armor and troops and increased vulnerability.
I would suggest that while hiring locals can be a good technique, one thet the US Army on the frontier instutionalized, it is not the complete solution. I don't see a need to track hamsters either. But I do see a need to learn to read the environment around you, an ability that gets dampened in a play station, double decaf double mocha world....but, my impression of modern soldiers is that solid and well honed trade skills is more useful than the "I can track a hamster through the leaf canopy," type of stuff that gets hyped. Those skills can best be accessed by leveraging the Indig, who may be persuaded to work for you. The IDF do not even try to teach tracking. They just hire the Bedouin.
Tom
PS
Then again hamsters may not be as innocent as they first appear
Don't forget fishing. They know what bait to use and tend to be very good at police sting operations...use the hunters for those that get away
It was for exactly these reasons that the Rhodesian Light Infantry, the "Tradesmen," made up of Rhodies, Brits, Yanks and a few drunken Irish Bastards, operated in parallel with the Selous Scouts, Rhodesia`s "woodsmen," made up of Rhodies and turned guerillas. The Scouts, as pseudo-terrs, found (tracked and infiltrated) the real terrs hiding in the bush or among the civvy population for us, and the RLI (and others) went in by chopper and in Tradesman like fashion killed them. Simple. In 19 years of COIN with fire fights sometimes as often as 3 times a day, we (RLI) lost 86 men KIA, and the Scouts over the 8? years of their establishment lost 40. The terrs were killed by the tens of thousands, which is why we are so popular with the PC brigade.I'd far rather have a Company of physically fit, technically skilled "tradesman" who understood radios, weapons, and their tactical application. - and could apply it to the terrain and population as required, than some bunch of "wood rangers" who may be out of their depth in down town "Bint Shed" at o'dark thirty in the AM.
(And no body armour, helmets, high tech rocketry and all the other stuff you poor sods have to hump around.)
Sorry my china, but with genuine respect, you are fighting a COIN war using Conventional tactics, which is why you don`t see the point of tracking hamsters.
Yeah and you gotta watch those pesky Trout too lol.
I.R
I wouldn't underestimate the other skill sets that modern cosmopolitan urban populations might bring to a COIN campaign, including multiple languages, a greater likelihood of global travel, and a lifetime of experience in cross-cultural environments.
In this sense, the Rhodesian COIN experience was a very different fight than the current FM3-24 type engagements. The Rhodesian campaign was rural-centric, whereas Iraq at least is a mix of rural and highly urbanized contexts. More importantly, in both Iraq and Afghanistan enhancing government legitimacy and securing or shifting the political loyalties of the population are a fundamental objective. In Rhodesia, by contrast, the white minority regime was never going to win the long-term legitimacy war, however many battles it might win the bush against African nationalist guerillas.
What the reserves bring to the fight
This discussion brings the greatest strength of the U.S. Army reserve to the front.
A battalion (~400-600 soldiers) will have sysadmins, mechanics, moms, medics, psychologists, construction workers, police, marketing executives, hunters, proficient speakers of at least four languages other than english, college professors, practicitioners of a dozen martial arts, artists in a half dozen media, and a host of other skills. And all these skills are of use to a smart commander in a COIN operation. An infantry battalion might not have the moms, but other than that...
As a leader, what I want is not a hundred crack hunters, but a hundred soldiers with three hundred skills represented, and then I'll make sure the sargeants teach them to hunt so they can survive the fight and use those other skills. A diverse skill set is a powerful baseline.
Real world example: A decade ago, my unit was on the way to the Balkans with about 120 soldiers. We weren't taking our own vehicles, but managing some contracted ones, so the commander didn't want to take any mechanics. I successfully lobbied to take a junior enlisted mechanic who really wanted to go. We needed bodies for the "Hey-you" details, and I argued that we should take a broad range of skills. The CO went along with the idea to shut me up. Sure enough, the contracted bus from the airport to our facility broke down, and our lone mechanic saved the day even before we got set up. I'm sure anyone who has deployed will agree with the utility of a wide range of skills and provide stories better than mine.
Rhodesia fought a domestic Insurgency
No need to apologise. When I joined the British Army, I actually did basic with 3 former RLI. Had a very good ex-RLI mate as well, so I am pretty up to speed on how the fire force worked. - and the British Army has a fair degree of so called "COIN" skills, so I am more than aware of the problems.
Point being the Selous Scouts, like FRU/JSG/Det in Ulster, were an "ISTAR" group type capability, specific to theatre.
Rhodesia fought a domestic Insurgency, as did the UK in Malaya and Kenya, so the context of the training was always leveraged in that direction. Tracking is purely a "Find" function support tool. Much underrated and mostly not exploited (the UK does have a funded and current tracking school!) - but that does not indicate to me that we need to create platoons of Hiawathas.
- and as an aside, back in 1988, I actually learned how to "track" Soviet AFVs at the NATO-LRRP School. Not sh*t. We had to learn to recognise all the different track pad patterns!
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
The Army Reserve doesn't really care what your non-US Army-trained skills are, and will fight as hard as they can, seemingly, to keep you from doing what you're good at.
Which is the greatest WEAKNESS of the US Army Reserves. I have been fighting that battle for the last 10 years, and it has become quite the sore spot with me.
The Army Reserve is working so hard to be just like "Big Army" that they have virtually removed any real advantage they ever had.
120mm I feel your pain, but I did say "A smart commander".
As a leader, to heck with the Personnel bean counters, I'll dig to find out what my people bring to the fight and use it as I see fit. If we're out in the Never-Never, hunters, are cordially invited to share their knowledge. In an urban environment, it is more subtle, but it is my job to find the [fill in the blank- plumber, EMT, linguists, former gang member, etc] appropriate to the mission, and put that soldier's expertise to use.
If I find out that a platoon leader was pushing an SME to the side for the sake of the formal MTOE, he/she is due some counselling.
And yes, I have been told to STFD/STFU when I tried to marry up expertise and mission needs, but it only makes me more adamant to do what's right when I'm in charge.
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