Training Fieldcraft

[Tom Odom]

Wow talk about return to earlier days. This will make the "Bambi is a person too" crowd really happy

Teaching Marines to be like hunters



Unorothodox war training emphasizes 'primal skills'By Rick Rogers
February 29, 2008

Trying to become predators instead of prey, Marines headed to Iraq will go through training built on advice from big-game hunters, soldiers of fortune and troops who grew up around firearms in the woods or the inner city.

Marines took part in a Combat Hunter training exercise yesterday at Camp Pendleton, where a mock Iraqi police officer was shot down in a simulated Iraqi village.

After the training scenario, 55 Marines gathered for a debriefing by Greg Williams, a former police officer and big-game hunter.

The "body" of a mock Iraqi police officer shot by an enemy sniper was carried off during an exercise for the Combat Hunter program, which is training troops to unleash deadly force only after determining it is warranted.
Combat Hunter, a program begun at Camp Pendleton and now being rolled out nationwide, is designed to help Marines stalk and kill insurgents by using their senses and instincts. It emphasizes keen observation of Marines' surroundings and meticulous knowledge of their foes' habits.

[slapout9]

Hi Tom can you check the link? I don't think it is working.

[Van]

Although BSA doesn't like to admit the military connection, Baden-Powell retired from the British Army at the request of the King (when a field marshall's baton was still a distinct possibility for him) to energize Boys Scouts. All the city kids with no fieldcraft joining the army was worrying (understandably) the Crown. (And "Aids to Scouting for NCOs and Men" by B-P is still worth reading.)

Marines headed to Iraq will go through training built on advice from ... troops who grew up around firearms in the woods or the inner city.

The inner city piece is interesting, but makes perfect sense. A kid from the sticks of Alabama might know how to hunt, but does not have the visceral understanding of how gangs work that a kid from the NYC projects would. What's going on in Baghdad looks more like the Crips and the Bloods than anything else I can compare it to.

[Tom Odom]

Hi Tom can you check the link? I don't think it is working.

Thanks mate. Fixed!

[selil]

Can I use my bow? And if Tinks brings in Bambi what brings in the bad guys? Beer? I really doubt they are teaching anybody to fox walk but all soldiers should be exposed to real field craft at some point.

[Ron Humphrey]

How the only part I saw about learning how to determine when to and not to attack was almost hidden Everything else seemed to focus on the idea of how to make a natural born killer. Are we sure thats not almost the opposite of what the intent is?

[selil]

How the only part I saw about learning how to determine when to and not to attack was almost hidden Everything else seemed to focus on the idea of how to make a natural born killer. Are we sure thats not almost the opposite of what the intent is?

It looks like they are teaching observational skills more than woodcraft. Watching to see who the actors are from afar and then bring in the pain. I think (don't know for sure) the term is "observational sociology" what the sociologists do when they are watching behaviors in the real world only at a tactical versus research level. I'm not sure though the article doesn't include much on the actual training.

[Ken White]

experienced guys. It's pretty well rounded and a mix of urban and boonie tips and techniques. They've been doing it about a year and it's getting better with each iteration. So I've been told by one who probably knows.

[William F. Owen]

Combat Hunter, a program begun at Camp Pendleton and now being rolled out nationwide, is designed to help Marines stalk and kill insurgents by using their senses and instincts. It emphasizes keen observation of Marines' surroundings and meticulous knowledge of their foes' habits.

Wow! So what were they doing before? Walking around with traffic cones on their heads. I spent most of my basic training "stalking." When we could "stalk" with rifles, we stalked with GPMG and 84mm... then we stalked some more.

Using "senses and instinct?" The alternative would be using blindness and stupidity?

I think this article must be BS. I can't believe the USMC is that stupid not to already have this inculcated into every marine from birth.

[Tom Odom]

Wow! So what were they doing before? Walking around with traffic cones on their heads. I spent most of my basic training "stalking." When we could "stalk" with rifles, we stalked with GPMG and 84mm... then we stalked some more.

Using "senses and instinct?" The alternative would be using blindness and stupidity?

I think this article must be BS. I can't believe the USMC is that stupid not to already have this inculcated into every marine from birth.

The reality has nothing to do with stupidity and everything to do with awakening and shapening dormant senses, especially when actually discussing killing in a society where it is sanctified in computer games even as we try and remove it from the same society.

Tom

[Ken White]

...
I think this article must be BS. I can't believe the USMC is that stupid not to already have this inculcated into every marine from birth.

How many times have Norfolk and I written -- the US does NOT train the basics at all well, the Commonwealth Armies do. We in the US were able to gloss over that for years because up until WW I we were an agrarian society and many of those skills were present upon entry; that remained generally true up to about Korea, been all down hill since then. The problem is that society has changed significantly since then while the training process stagnated and is just now starting to catch up.

Don't knock 'em for not doing it before, that's over and done -- applaud 'em for finally doing a little.

Now, if we can just wake the US Army up a tad...

[selil]

How many times have Norfolk and I written -- the US does NOT train the basics at all well, the Commonwealth Armies do. We in the US were able to gloss over that for years because up until WW I we were an agrarian society and many of those skills were present upon entry; that remained generally true up to about Korea, been all down hill since then. The problem is that society has changed significantly since then while the training process stagnated and is just now starting to catch up.

Don't knock 'em for not doing it before, that's over and done -- applaud 'em for finally doing a little.

Now, if we can just wake the US Army up a tad...

According to a book I was reading (sorry I can't remember which one) after WW2 the United States in the period of only four or five years switched. Agrarian to suburban industrialized. Foggy memory fading fast.... It seems that tools and jobs increased, decreasing farm labor requirements, increasing industrial worker needs. It took time to cement but everything was effected from labor relations to what people did on the weekend. Community service and recreation jumped and solitary sporting activities like hunting fell away.

Dang can't remember which book that was in.... 32 books in 16 weeks of sociology and my brain is mush.

[120mm]

Wow! So what were they doing before? Walking around with traffic cones on their heads. I spent most of my basic training "stalking." When we could "stalk" with rifles, we stalked with GPMG and 84mm... then we stalked some more.

Using "senses and instinct?" The alternative would be using blindness and stupidity?

I think this article must be BS. I can't believe the USMC is that stupid not to already have this inculcated into every marine from birth.

Ummm, yes?!?

Take a look at some of the pictures taken, of US Troops in "tactical" formation, walking down the streets, that make it to the open press.

But please don't speak the "traffic cone" thing too loudly, it will become mandatory wear, should some of the O-6s in charge hear about it.

[marct]

Hey Selil,

According to a book I was reading (sorry I can't remember which one) after WW2 the United States in the period of only four or five years switched. Agrarian to suburban industrialized. Foggy memory fading fast.... It seems that tools and jobs increased, decreasing farm labor requirements, increasing industrial worker needs. It took time to cement but everything was effected from labor relations to what people did on the weekend. Community service and recreation jumped and solitary sporting activities like hunting fell away.

The trend started in the 1920's and was accelerated by the Great Depression and WW II was the final tipping point in the US (it was earlier in Canada; right after WW I). The tipping point was the expansion of transportation and communications infrastructures combined with the need for large corporate farms and centralized manufacturing facilities for war production (which, combined with a much lower population, is why it happened earlier in Canada).

Dang can't remember which book that was in.... 32 books in 16 weeks of sociology and my brain is mush.

Damn, but that's masochistic!

[Boot]

back in the 80's, stressing many of the same things; They were called LICEX's. Low Intensity Conflict Exercises. Now we didn't have gang Cops teaching techniques, we did have former gangbangers.

[jcustis]

I thought the premise of the program was BS too when I first heard about it, and then I had to help send Marines to it! I failed to get feedback from the students before they were sucked up into pre-deploy actions, but it tends to make sense that we are coming back to some things that may seem utterly common sense.

There used to be basic tracking lanes at the schoolhouses that produced infantrymen, but that went away sometime after I attended in 1993. I do not know if the training has returned, but combat tracking has certainly come into vogue to a degree as well.

[Rhodesian]

Sirs

My own experience with genuine field craft would suggest that this is instinctive, and "town boys" very rarely have it, despite the best training available.

I wonder if anyone has read the book "Mark of the Warrior"? Based on British action against the Japanese during WWII, it portrays the problem of "instinct", or rather the lack of it. I apologise if this sounds arrogant, but if you dont know what its like for the insects to "talk" to you, you havent got "it".

I.R

[William F. Owen]

My own experience with genuine field craft would suggest that this is instinctive, and "town boys" very rarely have it, despite the best training available.

I'm not sure I'd agree totally, but you have the bones of a good point, and I'd certainly defer to your experience. I know a good few "Wiltshire" farm boys who stood-to a whole platoon harbour because they couldn't recognise the sound of badger foraging at night.

I'd also say that, from a UK perspective, city boys (and I am not one) tend to make good modern soldiers. If you want technical proficiency, then a British Army member of the Kings Regiment, knew about 62 good ways to steal any car, and the 1st Battalion Royal Green Jackets were pretty good a bank robberies.

...that aside, I am somewhat sceptical as of the lording and deification of "Hiawatha" skills, because the gap between useful and good is vast. I think the majority of what is useful, can be taught and learnt by experience. Providing that training and experience is obviously key.

Urban environments often need to be "read" just as proficiently as rural. EG> "Is that Abdul Badguy's wife just taking out the garbage of is she checking the coast is clear." "Is that guy on the roof just taking some air or is he a look out." etc etc etc. Sorry to bang on with the obvious but I hope this helps.

[120mm]

Honestly, talent has a lot to do with it.

I would take a "city boy" who is also an outdoors enthusiast, against a "country boy" who doesn't care for the outdoors, any day. I grew up basically out of doors, in the country, but I have an aptitude for woodsmanship. My peers, growing up, had a similar background, but most of them were "duds" in the woods.

[Rhodesian]

I would take a "city boy" who is also an outdoors enthusiast, against a "country boy" who doesn't care for the outdoors, any day.

A sentiment I agree with entirely, however I apologise if my use of the words "City Boys" did not actually reflect my intent, which would be to separate those who have no experience/interest/skills/instinct of woodcraft/bushcraft/desertcraft, from those who do, whether living within cities or not.

At the risk of annoying you further, my real point has been missed, namely "instinct", a quality we are either born with or not, and which develops smartly within an environment where the hunter may also be the hunted. I dont believe any situation within the UK is available to allow for this quality to be exercised to the degree required from an early enough age (paint ball? rofl) , although it may be argued that the Americans do. The UK`s differing culture has ensured that access to rifles etc has been severely restricted, while my own people, for example, were using FN 7.62 rifles etc from below the age of ten. Outside of Pier arcades, most British troops never actually see, let alone use a rifle until basic training, and only then once they are at least 16, but more likely 18 years old, an age far to late to begin to develop genuine "riflemanship" (is that a word?). A paint brush in my hand, for example, makes me a painter, but in the hand of Leonardo Da Vinci he becomes an artist (I`m getting poetic, more beer required . . . .) The same is so for the rifle, I can be a good rifleman through repetitive training, even a marksman, or I can be an instinctive hunter (rifleman or gunner for that matter) - in other words, an artist. These skills are instinctive, not merely trained or drilled for, though for most of us the latter is obviously a starting point: and on this theme, basic British fire and movement drills appear to be excellent.

Anyone can be taught bush skills, be bushcraft proficient, a great woodsman. But "knowing" instinctively when not to walk yourself (or your mates) into an ambush can`t be trained for. Have you ever watched a pretty women swishing her nice butt down the High Street from across the road, only to have her suddenly turn and look you straight in the eye? Instinct. She knew she was being watched (I nearly used the word "hunted" but that might be misconstrued ). The same goes for anyone else who, for no reason they can explain, has often likewise done the same (know they were being watched, not doing the perving lol !) Place people with these "skills" in the bush, with the relevent training and tactics etc, and we have men amply qualified to fight a counter-insurgency war. I am in no way saying that this quality, or the lack of it, means that our present troops are not thoroughly courageous, capable men in a tight spot, superbly fit, and more than "up for it" in a Conventional fight. Merely that modern COIN warfare should have progressed from the era of when we send our best troops out on patrols, have a fire-fight, hopefully win, call in an airstrike, go home for tea.

These were the methods that my own people shifted away from in early 1972, as being largely inefficient. It merely exposed us to ambushing while patrolling the tens of thousands of square kilometers of bush (never mind the elephants, lions etc) - the proverbial long periods of boredom infitrated by short periods of abject terror.

If I may just broaden the discussion a tad, I recommend finding out about Rhodesia`s use of psuedo-terrorists and Fire Force, and start asking why British troops today are expected to tackle Terrence, often with only snatch landrovers in support? Why superbly fit and very courageous RM etc are wasting time and losing bloody good men on endless foot patrols? Why it takes hours to get air support, when the opening play of any attack should be an airstrike? Why our boys are expected to "march up hills," without real-time and active gunship support? Why Terrence is frequently able to leg it away from contacts without getting cut off and then killed? Fire Force provided the solution to all this, while also giving us casevac (Medevac) facilities within a usual 7 minute window, and kill rates in excess of 116 to 1. But perhaps that is another story. I agree 120mm, enough of the warrior crap. Now where`d I put my beer . . . .

www.therli.com
http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/

I.R