Is it in the US' Interest to Support Israel?
Dear Small Wars Council Community,
Is it in the US' interest to support Israel?
It is clear that US support of Israel increases anti-Americanism in the Middle East and distrubs the US' relationship with Arab countries. It definetly makes the US more unpopular in Iraq and Afghanistan, and possibly aggravates violence and/or creates terrorists in the said countries.
What does Israel give in return? Is it worth it?
Thanks,
Magnusmaximus
1. Yes, because Israel has an absolute right to exist.Originally Posted by magnusmaximus
2. Rubbish, and even if it were true, what's your point? Doing the right thing is always the hardest thing to do.
3. Israel doesn't have to give anything in return. Do the Bosnian Muslims, or the victims of the Rwandan Genocide owe anybody anything? Does the US issue an invoice every time it does something good?
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
1. Why? and why does the same not apply to Palestine?
2. You have to be kidding. US support of Israel is the Islamic Terrorists equivalent of the 'Your country needs you' recruiting poster. Why do you thing unquestioning support of Israel is 'doing the right thing' rather than an attempt to broker a genuine compromise solution.
3. Fair enough - the US gives lots and gets little in return but that is their mistake to make. I am sure the (surviving) Tutsis owe no one anything because very little was done for them to thank us for
1. It applies to any state, the US wants it to and is not fanatically anti-US. Who else should Israel have looked to to guarantee its right to exist? There is no country called Palestine, and when there is, (and I hope for that day) it will most probably committed against the US, like Syria and Iran.
2. Again, so what if it is? US forces being present in Saudi-Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan are far more inflammatory than the US support for Israel. Why would anyone care if extremists are offended?
How does Israel, have any less right to US Support than Egypt and/or Jordan? - who both receive substantial support.
I don't object to someone asking the question. I strongly object to Israel being used as the sole example, because it implies that Israel has less right to US security guarantees than other nations.
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
The best single piece on this subject that I have seen in nearly 30 years of intense focus on the region is discussed here.
Just a note of warning: this is an inflammatory topic. Express your opinions without rancor or don't offer them.
Tom
I agree 100%. I also have to comment that if the Israel was not getting US support, many groups and countries in the Middle east would obviously be far more aggressive towards Israel. I believe we would have any even more unstable situation if this were to transpire.
JJackson: Look, if the Palestinians ever stop electing terrorists then we can talk about aid. I'm all for democracy AND THE RESPONSIBILITIES THAT COME WITH IT! If you elect Hamas, you live with the consequences. (Also, until the arming and training of children and combatants ceases, I will oppose any penny that goes to their aid.) If tomorrow Canada, or any country no matter how friendly, elected a political leadership like Hamas or Hezbollah I would cut them off.
Adam L
It is in US interests to support Israel, but not so vehemently that a blind eye is turned towards some of the shenanigans of the last 50 years, because the more you relent, the more that will be taken the next time.
I wrote a research paper on the "special relationship" when I was a young buck in college, and then witnessed it at work firsthand during a few internships (from both sides as I was interning at an Arab lobbying group). Thank you Tom for reminding me that I needed to read the analysis offered up by that thread.
It will always be hard to establish metrics, but I believe that our support and the way it is perceived has done significant damage to our foreign relations capital within not only the Muslim world, but in other parts of the globe. On the flip side, I do respect the Israelis for pulling up there bootstraps and getting their ruck on when times got tough. I just don't agree with most of the policies and practices that stir the pot in that part of the world.
And again on demeanor
And I repeat my warning about opinion adding TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED, Adam.
Typing in all caps is shouting? When was that posted? Sorry, no offense was intended. I'm posting on too many places and getting confused.
Adam L
Everything is perceptions, but unfortunately the way things are going these days it doesn't matter much what we do. Propaganda no longer relies on even a residue of truth. If we stopped all funding to Israel tomorrow and began an embargo most of the Middle East would still insist on a conspiracy. People love things to be simple and black and white. Conspiracies give them that. The problem is no matter where you go in the world most people generally want to feel good in one way or another. The easiest way to achieve this is to escape reality and ignore logic. This is one of the problems with battling conspiracies. In a sense, we are battling the human condition.
Adam L
(I apologize for this grand over-simplification, but I think it is true to some extent.)
Last edited by Adam L; 03-04-2008 at 05:12 PM.
Just to avoid any future confusion for folks (and not just you, Adam), typing in all caps has been considered shouting since the early days of e-mail. It's considered rude at best and very provocative at worst, so it's best avoided unless you're really serious about something or trying to piss people off (usually the latter and not the former).Typing in all caps is shouting? When was that posted? Sorry, no offense was intended. I'm posting on too many places and getting confused.
Adam L
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Thanks for that. I've been on the internet since it started, but I never really did any correspondence or anything until very recently. I never understood why people didn't just use the phone.
Adam L
We pay a high price for supporting Israel unconditionally, including the fact that large chunks of the world will never believe anything we say about freedom/democracy/fairness/curtailing religious extremism because we never insist on any of those things in Palestinian/Israeli relations.
Voters are overwhelming willing to pay the price, don't want to do anything that lowers the price and aren't going to change anytime soon.
Whether it's fair, or should be changed, is a moot question because it isn't going to change.
This is exactly what I would say
...if I wanted to edit or append my original comments. That die was cast a long time ago.
I hope nobody here believes that I was suggesting the US stop supporting Israel.
Personally, I think there are many moral and practical reasons why the US should continue to support Israel.
I just wanted to learn more about what other people thought.
Whether they believe us about "freedom/democracy/fairness/curtailing religious extremism" isn't really that important. Personally, I don't think we really care that much. What the world knows about us is that we have a short attention span and that we are not consistent on anything. This means we can't be trusted on anything. We can't even be trusted to do what is in our own interest.
[/quote]freedom/democracy/fairness/[/quote]
I want to break down what we say about these issues. (More what we mean even if we won't admit it to ourselves.)
Freedom - We want people to be free. That is as long as they don't want to come and kill us. Also, only so free as that they will not trample on other peoples freedoms or our prosperity.
Democracy - We say we want democracy, but this is ridiculous. We like to think that letting people vote will make them civilized and peaceful. This is absurd. If the entire world went democratic tomorrow it would be just as if not more messed up than before. We forget that the constitution of a country is of the utmost importance. Our country has survived mainly because of our constitution and its definitions of certain rights and privileges. A democratic society without a strong judiciary and a sound legal foundation is doomed to ruins.
Fairness - Not really. We want more of a concept of equity, and only as long as it suits us. LOL!
Adam L
I think many of us would, but unfortunately I don't there really think this is going to go anywhere. There seems to be a thread on this issue (or something close enough) that pops up every 3-4 weeks. Every time we time we end up with the same arguments, from the same people. From looking back at that which was posted before I joined this board, it looks as though this is the way its always been. (I sound absolutely ridiculous writing, "the way its always been." Could that be more of a cliche? LOL!) This issue may in fact just be too hot/loaded.
Adam L
magnusmaximus,
Israel shouldered the burden, during certain cases in Africa and Latin America, in the worldwide struggle against communism, in particular when U.S. hands became tied for various reasons. This is something that the Israeli’s gave in return. On a whole, Israel was a strong partner against communism.
I would agree with other posters with regard to support of Israel, that the poison is in the portions. I see our current, near unconditional support for Israel as contrary to our national interest. Lebanon, Palestine, the 2003 Iranian overture, these are all recent cases where I think we did not act in our national interest, and see our unconditional support for Israel as one of the reasons why. Particularly with regards to our Syria policy, I am rather disappointed.
The Assad's superb ability at destroying Jihadis goes largely ignored by an Israel-obsessed political right in our country, and unappreciated by the political left. Our current policy has us backing the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood. I am willing to entertain the notion of backing the Brothers elsewhere, just not the Syrian branch. They were a crucial element of 9/11 and should be killed.
IMHO, the level of unconditional support for Israel in our nation nears beyond-reason, as Paul Pillar recently put it, “Israel needs to be pushed to make concessions, and that’s a topic that we can’t seem to be able to discuss rationally in this country.” It really is a fascinating phenomenon, Walt & Mearshiemer’s work is one of the most intriguing things I have read in political science; Phillip’s American Theocracy covers some of the same ground and is also good.
RA is absolutely correct in saying that “Voters are overwhelming willing to pay the price, don't want to do anything that lowers the price and aren't going to change anytime soon.” With only a little hyperbole here, my fear is that the price someday may very-well be Manhattan or Chicago. This is a price I am unwilling to pay. So if we can take some of the wind out of the salafi-jihadist sails, at cost of halting our unconditional support of Israel, then I am all for it.
Last edited by bourbon; 03-05-2008 at 07:23 PM. Reason: grammar
Bourbon,
Excellent post!
Tom
I am not sure I understand this. Are you saying that you can appease the Arab extremists by not seeking to assist Israel in its national defence?
The problem the salafi-jihadist have with Israel is their existence. That's not negotiable. At worst the Jihadists seek to kill every Jew in the Middle-East, and at best crush them back to a stateless ethnic minority. That's what is at stake.
It's an utter myth to suggest that the biggest reason the Arab/Islamist extremists hate the US is because of their support for Israel. They hate the US anyway, especially the Iranians, because of all the US interference in their country, over the last 50 years, and about 200 "good" reasons. The Iraq invasion may well have a lot to do with anti-US feeling. Hating Jews is just their cherry on the cake.
Note how Morocco does not care about Israel's existence, as some 18% of Israelis are Moroccans.
Note how Turkey, an Islamic country, is a de facto ally of Israel.
Viewed from an Israeli perspective, US support is not "unconditional." What is more, the majority of Israelis do not want unconditional US support. What they want is the US's assistance to ensure their survival.
99% Israelis know far more about the Middle East, than 99% of Americans and see the US as generally culturally ignorant, especially when it comes to the Arabs, so taking advice/pressure from the US about foreign policy and national survival is not well received.
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
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