The case for ethnic cleansing

[ancien]

The ethnic issue is in most cases not the root of the problem. If you look at the origin of problems in multi ethnic communities then you find in most situations that geographic and economics are the primary problems.

I don’t think that the common man is thinking to commit ethnic cleansing, but he get stimulated by his own political leaders to discriminate and by that philosophy it would benefit the solutions for a nations problem.

Don’t fall in that trap.

grtz

[Entropy]

Thanks for the replies all. I want to make clear that this is NOT something I am supporting nor indeed could I support and still subscribe to my American ideals.

Tom's comment about the unique conditions in Europe at the end of WWII and the totality of the German loss is a really good point to make.

[John T. Fishel]

I would have to argue that there are, indeed, cases where ethnic separation (less the horrific 'cleansing') make sense. The population exchange of Greece and Turkey after WWI, although hardly peaceful, has worked out relatively well in the long run. In the nearer term, the separation of Greek and Turkish communities in Cyprus - again not peaceful - has resulted in a more peaceful island. (Yes, I know it has the longest running peacekeeping operation in the history of the UN, but also one of the most peaceful.)

I would also say that aquiescing in the breakup of Yugoslavia was one of the dumber things the West has done at great cost to Serbs, Croats, Bosniacs, and Kosovars in terms of ethnic cleansing. And we are about to compound the problem whenever we get around to trying to make Kosovo's decaratory independence truly de facto.

Cheers

JohnT

[Tom Odom]

I would have to argue that there are, indeed, cases where ethnic separation (less the horrific 'cleansing') make sense. The population exchange of Greece and Turkey after WWI, although hardly peaceful, has worked out relatively well in the long run. In the nearer term, the separation of Greek and Turkish communities in Cyprus - again not peaceful - has resulted in a more peaceful island. (Yes, I know it has the longest running peacekeeping operation in the history of the UN, but also one of the most peaceful.)

I would also say that aquiescing in the breakup of Yugoslavia was one of the dumber things the West has done at great cost to Serbs, Croats, Bosniacs, and Kosovars in terms of ethnic cleansing. And we are about to compound the problem whenever we get around to trying to make Kosovo's decaratory independence truly de facto.

Cheers

JohnT

JohnT

I agree with you in the sense that once certain forces are unleached ethnic cleansing may indeed be the solution that evolves. It has happened to many times in history for us to simply dismiss it.

My concerns are simply that we recognize how lethal these forces are and just how unstoppable they can prove to be (or how costly stopping them can prove to be should we try to do so).

You offer our acceptance of the Yugoslav breakup as an example of poor decisionmaking. I am not a Balkans guy but I think I understand what you are getting at. I am not sure that we could have stopped it given everything that was happening at the time.

But as a Middle East guy, I was shocked and extremely angry when the Dep SecDef for Policy Wolfowitz (Wolfotwit) siad in 2002/2003 prewar that ethnic tensions in Iraq were nothing like those in the Balkans. That is the kind of ignorant and willfully stupid decision that does set in motion the forces of ethnic cleansing.

Entropy: I don't think anyone here thought you were advocating ethnic cleansing. Thanks for the thought provoking post.

Best

Tom

[Presley Cannady]

Don't savings only follow relocation when targeted group is weak or otherwise mobile and not terribly attached to their ancestral lands? Setting aside all the other game changing tragedies of a post-war Europe entering the Cold War, the plight of the European Jews and the survivors' flight from Central and Eastern Europe didn't accompany a break up of states or national cultures. On the other hand, I don't see the Irish, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Israelis, Palestinians, or any of the other trendy ethnonationalists moving for greener pastures anytime soon--cold dead hands and all.

[Entropy]

Entropy: I don't think anyone here thought you were advocating ethnic cleansing. Thanks for the thought provoking post.

I assumed that, but just wanted to make it clear. Sometimes the medium can give false impressions.

A couple of questions:

Is it possible to "manage" ethnic separation to reduce its brutality? Could this ever be the "least bad" option to exercise and if so, what might the conditions be?

As for the Balkans - I'm no expert there either, but it seems like a mixed bag at the current time. Slovenia and Croatia appear to be thriving while Bosnia is only held together by peacekeeping forces. Are those who were forcibly removed from, for example, Croatia likely to be back in 50 or 500 years to seek revenge and deliver quid pro quo?

As for Europe, it's period of peace has not been that long in the grand scheme of things. It seems entirely possible and maybe even likely that the kind of warfare Europe experienced for most of its modern history might return one day.

[John T. Fishel]

but it seems from a reading of history that there was a South Slav nationalism that went beyond a greater Serbia. Similarly, there are those in Iraq who see a united nation and not just 3 major (& several minor) ethnic entities.

As to the question of wheter separation can be effectively managed - Cyprus is th best example I can think of and it was only managed after Turkey invaded. Moreover, it seems to be a case of permanent PKO! But, perhaps, that is the least bad solution.

Cheers

JohnT

[Rex Brynen]

Thanks for the replies all. I want to make clear that this is NOT something I am supporting nor indeed could I support and still subscribe to my American ideals.

..and apologies if my response was a bit too-sharped edge, although it was aimed at the concept and not you. Sadly, I routinely encounter people who do think its a good idea.