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Thread: Training for the Jihad (merged thread)

  1. #21
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    She still doesn't work, all I get is a 'megaupload' page with typical pop ups.

    Do we need to register and login ?
    You weren't kidding when you said you were thick on that other thread....

    Look at the top. There should be a three letter code. type it into the blank to the left of the "Download" button.

    BTW, I spent twenty minutes on that page trying to figure out how to download.
    Example is better than precept.

  2. #22
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTK View Post
    You weren't kidding when you said you were thick on that other thread....

    Look at the top. There should be a three letter code. type it into the blank to the left of the "Download" button.

    BTW, I spent twenty minutes on that page trying to figure out how to download.
    Okay, now I get it, along with 'wait 38 seconds or continue with premium downloads and your visa card number'. Could you give me yours, mine's dead

    It's now been 2 minutes and the $69.99 special is still friggin there !If I wasn't on a 12 hour shift, I'd have had a beer and smoke by now.

    Thanks anyway RTK

  3. #23
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Okay, now I get it, along with 'wait 38 seconds or continue with premium downloads and your visa card number'. Could you give me yours, mine's dead

    It's now been 2 minutes and the $69.99 special is still friggin there !If I wasn't on a 12 hour shift, I'd have had a beer and smoke by now.

    Thanks anyway RTK
    After the prerequesite 45 seconds, hit the second download button that appears. Then you'll be reading. I'm gonna have to e-mail this thing to you soon so you won't go postal in Estonia.
    Example is better than precept.

  4. #24
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    I'd use the full up URLs for websites you're sourcing. Additionally, use a common bibliographical format. For instance, for movie quotes I don't think using the fictional character's name as a source is correct. Also, you have opinions footnoted (ie. #74) which is not correct.

    Interesting thoughts, though I'm not sure what the "so what" factor is here.
    Example is better than precept.

  5. #25
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTK View Post
    After the prerequesite 45 seconds, hit the second download button that appears. Then you'll be reading. I'm gonna have to e-mail this thing to you soon so you won't go postal in Estonia.
    You've obviously never met an Ethnic Russian Postal worker in Estonia

    Remember the films with Russian migrant workers in gray dresses, a few missing teeth and fuzzy mustaches (the female workers RTK) ?

    Slapout can tell you where some of them are...in the South...Lower Alabama (LA)

  6. #26
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    The bottom line is this. A lot of the information on bombs online is rubbish. Terrorists tend to make two types of bombs; ANFO and AP. The instructions are easy to find, the materials easy to get, and the manufacturing very simple.
    I would have to disagree with that. The vast majority of IEDs has not been Ammonium Nitrate Fuel Oil (ANFO). Such a device requires far too much raw material and no place to hide a 50 gallon drum along a dirt road.

    Where I am and have recently been, most have been modified projectiles without fuses, or simple command detonated IEDs with extracted HEs from projectiles.

  7. #27
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Remember the films with Russian migrant workers in gray dresses, a few missing teeth and fuzzy mustaches (the female workers RTK) ?

    Slapout can tell you where some of them are...in the South...Lower Alabama (LA)

    Yea baby Don't they call them potato mama's?

  8. #28
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Slapout can tell you where some of them are...in the South...Lower Alabama (LA)
    I've seen more than a few of them in Western Kentucky. Which is another reason I will retire to the Colorado Springs area.
    Example is better than precept.

  9. #29
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Can i just put it on my website and let y'all download it? Or is that like farting in public? I've got unlimited bandwidth...
    Sam Liles
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    The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
    All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.

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    Thumbs up

    Sorry about the hassle with megaupload. Yeah, selil, feel free to host it.

    Thanks for the heads-up Stan, I'll add that. I was thinking more of terrorism worldwide and using IED and bomb interchangeably (whether that's right or not).

    RTK, my 'so what' factor is me trying to say three points. That a lot of US institutions, like the Department of Justice and some of the US Army's doctrine writers, are about 20 years behind the curve, that Iraq is the most important thing happening for making bombs, and that other groups are copying the Iraqis using the internet.

  11. #31
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    SoiCowboy your document is located here (276KB, pdf)
    Sam Liles
    Selil Blog
    Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
    The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
    All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.

  12. #32
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Thanks Sam, it works and I no longer need RTK's credit card

    SoiCowboy,
    I need to do some research, but during our last course with the METs SO13 and SO15 earlier this year, the stats for ANFO were less than 20 percent. Large devices or incidences such as The Oklahoma Bomber Mcveigh require far more background and, to say the least room for the IED (you need a lot because correctly mixed ANFO has barely 75% of commercial grade TNT's explosive force). Furthermore, ANFO is extremely unstable and sensitive to electrostatic discharge (ESD).

    Comp. B and C (aka C4) (military grade explosives used in artillery shells and demolitions) are very stable or insensitive, and relatively easy to come by, especially in Iraq.

    I'll get off my soapbox now

  13. #33
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    No, I'm glad for your input.

    Was the Mets stats just for England or worldwide? Are they classified?

    I was under the impression that ANFO is fine as long as the blasting cap and booster were kept separately from the main device and only assembled on site.

    Of course if you have it all rigged together ready to go I can see how an electric current would detonate it.

    Do you need any special knowledge to detonate C4 beyond needing a detonator and booster?

  14. #34
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoiCowboy View Post
    No, I'm glad for your input.

    Was the Mets stats just for England or worldwide? Are they classified?
    The materials we have are marked FOUO, but I only have paper versions as they could not legally send us e-versions. The book's about 7 inches of paper. The training we performed together was mostly post blast and anti-terrorism. The stats were collected together with NATO and other LEs and are world-wide figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoiCowboy View Post
    I was under the impression that ANFO is fine as long as the blasting cap and booster were kept separately from the main device and only assembled on site.

    Of course if you have it all rigged together ready to go I can see how an electric current would detonate it.
    Actually, even high grade ANFO will not explode with just a detonator (a bit stronger version of the movie favorites 'blasting cap"), and you will also need a good primary explosive source (like TNT) (booster as you put it) to create the "explosive train". You're right, better assemble things on site or those pesky ESDs will get ya

    Quote Originally Posted by SoiCowboy View Post
    Do you need any special knowledge to detonate C4 beyond needing a detonator and booster?
    Nope, almost none at all. You can even take a piece and light it with a match, heat your rations, or throw it in a fire and just watch it burn. But, don't go stompin' out the fire or hit it with a hammer

    No primary explosive is needed - just a good detonator - carefully push it into the C4 (or make a hole like the detonator wells on Claymores), apply 9 to 12 VDC (Ooops, forgot, get far away first and use plenty of WD1 wire), and there you go.

    C4 unlike in the movies is not the high explosive most would think, it's only about 1,3 times stronger than commercial grade TNT. It is however the military's favorite, as you can do just about anything with it and it won't detonate (save putting a detonator in it).

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    Would it be fair to say that ANFO is the bomb of choice for beginner bombers and truck bombers?

    I'm going to go away and read up more now. Thanks again.

  16. #36
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoiCowboy View Post
    Would it be fair to say that ANFO is the bomb of choice for beginner bombers and truck bombers?

    I'm going to go away and read up more now. Thanks again.
    In short, yes, the vehicle borne ANFO IED is still the choice for young terrorists, but its growing harder to make something of sufficient size (tractor-trailer) and not attract attention buying tons of fertilers, etc.

    Secondly, the terrorist must be able to negotiate the beheamoth through town safely in order to reach his target. In my warped opinion, if you set the skills bar too high, the bubba may begin to wonder why hes going to meet his maker

    As I recall, the first ANFO IED was a mere accidental creation of the IRA in the early 70s. We would later learn that the new generation of car bombers were coincidently all graduates of CIA and/or Pakistani Intelligence schools. Some say the Saudis financed the Mujahedin trainees who later would terrorize the Russians in Kabul.

    Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time

    There some good reading out there that may just surprise you (well before the internet):

    You have shown no pity to us! We will do likewise. We will dynamite you!
    Anarchist warning (1919)
    Buda's Wagon (1920)

    Preliminary Detonations (1948-63), "Reds' Time Bombs Rip Saigon Center".

    Regards, Stan

  17. #37
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoiCowboy View Post

    RTK, my 'so what' factor is me trying to say three points. That a lot of US institutions, like the Department of Justice and some of the US Army's doctrine writers, are about 20 years behind the curve, that Iraq is the most important thing happening for making bombs, and that other groups are copying the Iraqis using the internet.
    I'm not trying to slap you down, it's just that after a long day of molding LTs I tend to be short and to the point.

    I think if the above stated concept is the thesis than you can probably go a little further to develop it. And, again, I'd use the full URLs so one can see the variety of sources that you've used instead of cross-referencing each and every one.
    Example is better than precept.

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    RTK, its no worries here. I like short and to the point. Will do on the urls.

    Stan, I wasn't thinking about 18 wheelers, more like dumpsters and beer trucks that can get away with being large and in a town center. As you say with the anarchists and their dynamite, whats old is new again. The difference (as far as I can see) is this time, you can innovate much faster.
    Last edited by SoiCowboy; 08-21-2007 at 06:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoiCowboy
    ...a lot of US institutions, like the Department of Justice and some of the US Army's doctrine writers, are about 20 years behind the curve....
    I strongly disagree with this statement. By pre-OEF/OIF standards, doctrine has been developing at an amazing speed. Most importantly, entirely new FMs, TMs & TCs have been developed (for subjects that were never previously addressed in doctrine - especially regarding the IED threat, and on SSE, which is closely related), and the drafts put out to the key stakeholders out in the field with relative rapidity. It still takes a while for the drafts to be worked and re-worked (inital draft, draft, final draft, final approved draft, etc.) into final approved doctrine - but that is due nearly as much to the evolving nature of the threat as it is to administrative processes required for the doctrine to be approved and published for implementation.

    And, despite your statement in the paper, you ain't gonna find most of these on GlobalSecurity.org, Cryptome.org or FAS.org.

  20. #40
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoiCowboy View Post
    Stan, As you say with the anarchists and their dynamite, whats old is new again. The difference (as far as I can see) is this time, you can innovate much faster.
    Certainly true, but then forensic science has also come a long way. This may not hold true in Iraq, but look how quickly a forensic post blast found Yousef (sp?) in the 93 WTC bombing, or better yet, how quickly McVeigh & Nichols were caught.

    The Tube bombings took a bit more time, but again forensic science also caught up with them.

    I'll still check around for some current stats as promised.

    I'll close with echoing what Jedburgh posted:

    Such sites as GlobalSecurity.org, Cryptome.org or FAS.org are at best references and barely touch the surface. While you may find the chemical combinations and terms for explosives, much like the IRA in the early 70s, you won't find out just what percentage translates to hghly unstable. Those manuals are all classified, tried and true.

    I don't know what the DOJ is doing, but I do know that the Army is not behind the curve.

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