US Army Exoskeleton

[selil]

Caltrops are a neat idea - why not paint on some contact explosives for an added bonus? But for real fun, just think about the possibilities of real time hacking .

I was following the real time hacking in my brain. We've done some neat stuff with circumventing 3des real time over wireless networks. We can't attack "integrity" of the signal but we can overlay the signal with a sort of "replay" of what we want something to do. Unfortunately nobody wants to fund that as it makes anything UAV or otherwise telemetry controlled basically useless. I'm not complaining though they keep throwing money at me I'll keep spending it.... I'm in conferences the later part of this week as they try and find me collaborators.

[Russ Strong]

The intent of the Jake, as seen by experienced Afghanistan and Iraq veterans, is as teamed units that move and cover lines of sight and carry gear supporting dismounted warfighters on patrols. It does not replace the foot soldier, but provides him with availability of heavier firepower, ability to better configure or reconfigure a situation, get wounded out, do remote operations desired (without having to wait for a special remote device).


The Tactical Decision Game part of this thread was not on the posting here at the top. It will be posted onto the original thread, available by a link. This can be a good "think through" and a way to consider supporting systems that can help our warfighters.

Until that is updated there, you can go to this site and consider the scenario and what you would do.

http://www.americanagility.com/TacticalDecision.asp

[wm]

You don't want me looking at how to knock it out.... really...I'd start with a 10Kw microwave burst that should make it funky (take the emitter from a standard microwave oven and juice it up... total cost about $10... steal the oven)... To high tech? Try caltrops... Bad science fiction is fun, but good science fact is hillarious. I like the concept, but I still want to fit a V8 in it, and can I borrow it for Daytona next year... I bet the chicks dig it.

It is pretty cool - I've seen shots of it as well. Having said that, as Selil pointed out (indirectly ), you can knock it out with a sling.
Well, having gamed a lot of mechwarrior and battletech, I would have to wonder about ways to knock it out. That would get me thinking about things like how well the armour can stand up to an RPG or a buried shaped charge. In some urban areas, especially with winding streets and/or closed walls, it strikes me that if you could knock out 1-2 you could block the entire alley. Right now, I'm playing with an analog of how to knock down heavy men-at-arms (not cavalry) and, once they are down, they are toast.

Marc

Sam and Marc are on to the real point of my image from "Alien." My image of this JAKE thing after rolling over something as simple as a small AP mine is a very large dying cockroach flailing around on its back--first question is how does the crewman get out safely? Another image (like Marc's) is that ambush scene of the SUVs in the alleys in Colombia from "Clear and Present Danger." I compare those images with a scene from that epic 1964 Richard Widmark/Sidney Poitier Viking movie "The Long Ships" where Russ Tamblyn gets knocked on his butt and is able to execute a quick kip up and get back in the fight immediately. If JAKE can meet this latter vision, we may really be on to something for the light fighters out there. Otherwise we are still at the stage of the Fast Attack Vehicle Dune Buggies of the old 9th ID high tech test bed division.

It would be our combined admiration for Ellen Barkin/Penny Priddy's legs circa 1984

Tom, I think she was still lookin' pretty good in "Ocean's 13" last year.

[marct]

I keep thinking about how these could be hacked, either real time or via a virus and made to "dance" - the YouTube possibilities are absolutely awesome, to say nothing about the ridicule effect .

Russ, while we are obviously amusing ourselves (), there are some pretty serious points here. It strikes me that JAKE may be about as operable in the field as the first wave of tanks was. In and of itself, that's just normal in the development of a newish technology. Unfortunately, in the current political and perceptual climate, I have to wonder if that will work.

Marc

[slapout9]

Russ, do you have a prototype? or this just a concept?

[Russ Strong]

Russ, while we are obviously amusing ourselves (), there are some pretty serious points here. It strikes me that JAKE may be about as operable in the field as the first wave of tanks was. In and of itself, that's just normal in the development of a newish technology. Unfortunately, in the current political and perceptual climate, I have to wonder if that will work.

Marc

Marc,

You are onto the main point. There are some serious points and this has to come forward well thought out, particularly in the present climate. It seems much of our thinking in the equipment sector is in a defensive mode rather than offensive. Within this, with the MRAPs, our guys are further from their gear and support on patrols in many urban areas of ops. So our guys are tapped out at what they can carry. Yet some of the technologies they could use to do some pretty freaky stuff, is back on the truck.

Going forward, lets look at what we can do in basic format today. It must be compact, rugged, man operable, and must move like our soldier moves (every 12 yr old who takes a battlebot into the cage knows it has to be able to spin) And they must be able to team and cover each other just like foot maneuvers...this is defense and deterrence. You want a higher view from units, since you may be in amongst other vehicles and it has to be big enough to take the hits of vehicles. It needs to give a great visual (situational awareness) which goes a long ways to reading the game around you and IEDs and suspect IED scenarios. It has to be easy to get on and off (fast, in a fight, as another commented above). And, we haven't gone into the deception tactics that Special Ops guys came up with to make the enemy look silly. And it has to be done in a program where costs stay realistic...commercial equipment level of costs so units can be used as expendable, at times on purpose.

From this, we have to be doing something. Making something, but as a whole in being a working system, not testing it as a singular vehicle, where it is easy to shoot down the concept before it is understood (one wasp circling your head and you laugh and smack at it. Fifty wasps circling and you are running, flailing and cursing like a bandit).

Then it needs to be able to get it into the hands of a bunch of young warfighters in a MOUT facility and see what they expand from there (and not a group told to make this go away). In talking, we can blow up just about anything, at which point as taxpayers we should be pretty darn critical of the billions being spent on today and tomorrow's BIG targets, grouping our guys we present to our enemy (and all of these can be stopped with Laser Guided Energy just as easily as a Jake.)

The Jeep did a ton of work in WWII and on. The question I am posing is: How do we take an idea that is in that direction and get this generation's version of that?

[Russ Strong]

Slapout9,

Yeah there are a couple prototypes. They illustrate the concepts well and have provided the basis for a lot of input and discussion with experienced warfighters, and thus evolution of ideas and ideas from our defense company labs such as at Raytheon, BAE, L3Com and others. Thus the next generation will be very much on the mark for what the matured technology of 2008 can put together. They will be potent pups.

A LtCol at USASOC JFK Warfighting School who is involved in doctrine within unconventional warfare operated one of the prototypes at Ft Bragg last October and said: "This changes everything" Therein lies the problem. The changing has to be done intelligently and with solid commonsense.

[slapout9]

Russ, you ever thought of the LE market. Some of the high tech gear that may be impractical for the battlefield would work well in US cities. Just by looking at it I think they would be a lot cheaper than the present US style patrol vehicle. You would not have to defend against as many threats as a battlefiled either but yet it appears you are generally raising the level of protection offered to today's police officers. Patrol cars want stop any kind of bullet, unless it hits the engine block. And they cost way to much for what you get and you don't have that cool factor either.

[Russ Strong]

Slapout9,

The homeland security and SWAT and police markets have real applications. They don't seem to have money for development (homeland security has tons, but not available) They like to buy what is existing. Would be great opportunity with capital.

I may be warped, but my concern is that we are in a war that needs tactical equipment that fits General Petraeus' strategies that are working. He just needs some more tricks up his sleeve along these lines.

[marct]

Hey Slap,

Okay, I'm getting more SF images


In a more serious vein, I think Russ is absolutely correct about the capital availability for R&D in the LE sector.

[slapout9]

Believe me guys I know about R@D money for LE. I came up with a couple ideas and they just....well use your imagination. Although some are actually satrting to come about.

Russ, I agree on your philosophy bend the equipment to the soldier, don't bend the soldier to the equipment. When you are done with the prototype can I have it?...just kidding.

Marct, Robocop was a wimp...all good police officers can already do that stuff.

[marct]

Hi Russ,

The Jeep did a ton of work in WWII and on. The question I am posing is: How do we take an idea that is in that direction and get this generation's version of that?

Okay, let's play some of this out. First, I have a suspicion that your symbology is at the root of some of the reactions/problems. From what I can see, you are absolutely right that the JAKE is an analog to a jeep but not, however, to a powered exoskeleton. It is better to think of it as a personal vehicle rather than as "armour" (although I am getting occasional flashes of pictures of WW II German mini-tanks ).

One of the potential problems I see with it is in the area of reflexes. I am assuming that the control system is more vehicle like and not a feedback system based on physical movement. If that is correct, then there may well be a problem with shifting people in and out of them in combat situations. You may want to explore any control link options that would use the same musculature as "regular" combat movement to avoid this.

Okay, let me shift out of problems and start looking at some possible solutions. Selling it as a "personal vehicle" has some distinct benefits and it even lets you play with the Mobil Infantry meme created by Heinlein (book, not movie!). That can give you a perceptual advantage since it points towards exo-skeletal armour without claiming that you have it.

If you already have one or two prototypes, it may well be worth seeing if there is any potential LE deployment, a G8 meeting, maybe. I'm not looking for a combat deployment with this, but rather one that has some high visibility and where you can get some measure of the psychological effect a JAKE may have. That should help with selling the feasibility of the project and securing funding.

[marct]

I may be warped, but my concern is that we are in a war that needs tactical equipment that fits General Petraeus' strategies that are working. He just needs some more tricks up his sleeve along these lines.

Not "warped" . What sort of a timeline would you be looking at to operational deployment if money wasn't an issue?

[slapout9]

Seems like an excellant border patrol vehicle.

[marct]

Seems like an excellant border patrol vehicle.

That would get some good coverage as well. Hmmm, we need Rank Amateur to turn his marketing brain on here .

[Russ Strong]

Marc,

The concept work, the matured technologies of the defense companies wanting to supply and work with a "program of record", to be pulled together by an agile design team for the basic version of the vehicle (vehicle style controls and remote robotic controls of iRobot's stuff that is on the John Deere R Gator), are in line so that a solid work horse, "mobile toolbox" and basic gun station version could be in theater in an exploratory mode in 12-18 months (most likely into an town security situation in Afghanistan) If money was no object, this timeline could move down to 10 month for 20 units and 300 in 18 months.

[Billy Ruffian]

Wow, this thing has Rockstar cred as far as I'm concerned.

[marct]

Hi Russ,

So you could have a proof of concept deployment, say 20 or so, in theatre in a touch over a year. Hmm, have you already applied for the DoD SBIR program funding? It's not that much, but every little bit helps.

Back to scenarios, especially in Afghanistan. I think you would have a really good chance of billing the JAKE in a border patrol role, especially in the Kandahar area and along the Pakistan border. You might want to spin out a scenario on that, especially if you have decent IR sensing capabilities and can tie the remote operations controls in easily with a UAV video display.

Marc

[marct]

Hey Billy!

Think anyone in the armour happy CF would be interested ?

[charter6]

In terms of the border control mission, what's the off-road performance of the JAKE like? wouldn't the undersized front wheels cause problems?