TE Lawrence: a merged thread

[Infanteer]

Question: How many biographies and books are there about Allenby? How many are their about Lawrence?

Who was Allenby?

[Pete]

He was the officer played by Jack Hawkins in the film.

[William F. Owen]

Who was Allenby?

All joking apart the lionising and stroking of T.E. Lawrence has utterly obscured the military genius of the man he worked for, and the endeavours of a great many other people. Writing and studying T.E. Lawrence is an industry, with little or no actual military relevance.

[Infanteer]

I'll agree with you in part. Portrayals of Lawrence (as well as his own writing) never seem to put his efforts into the larger picture; this leaves many with the idea that he wandered into the desert and led the Arabs to victory. I think you are correct in your assertion that he is something of a tactical lightweight.

However, in my opinion, Lawrence had an excellent ability to understand culture and its "will to war" and published very good points on how to get the right angle of fighting someone else's war. On recollection of my own experiences of serving alongside Afghans, I found that many of his "Twenty-Seven Articles" mirrored my own observations of what worked. Obviously, my observations are not unique nor original - neither were Lawrence's; but they are excellent observations none the less.

[William F. Owen]

However, in my opinion, Lawrence had an excellent ability to understand culture and its "will to war" and published very good points on how to get the right angle of fighting someone else's war. On recollection of my own experiences of serving alongside Afghans, I found that many of his "Twenty-Seven Articles" mirrored my own observations of what worked. Obviously, my observations are not unique nor original - neither were Lawrence's; but they are excellent observations none the less.

I think you have to put that in context.

Across the British Empire there was literally thousands of multi-lingual British Officers, who worked extremely effectively within their area of operations. Guys like Lawrence were not common, but they were far from rare either. His observations were common practice in the British Imperial Army.
Lawrence was not a regular officer, ( thus mostly ignorant of the wider Army) and though adept at fitting in with Arabs, he was remarkably ignorant of how to fit into the Army that paid him. What the British Army leverage was Lawrence's huge emotional affinity for the Bedouin, the exact nature of which is somewhat "obscure".

What Lawrence brought into, encouraged by others, was a hunger for explanation of the carnage of the western front that portrayed there as being a "better way." Sadly, we now know there really wasn't.

Lawrence was relentlessly advertised way beyond his actual insights or ability. If anyone in the US COIN community ever bothered to research UK Irregular warfare in both breadth and depth, they would see Lawrence as far less remarkable.

[Infanteer]

I think you have to put that in context.

Across the British Empire there was literally thousands of multi-lingual British Officers, who worked extremely effectively within their area of operations. Guys like Lawrence were not common, but they were far from rare either.

Agreed - just reading a bit into Britain's experience in the Raj will find you a host of "unconventional" soldiers who insert themselves into the culture they were fighting in. I remember a passage from Slim where he talks about being tired and mistakenly giving a speech to his Indian soldiers in Gurkali as opposed to Hindi (or the opposite).

Lawrence just had a good publicist and serves as the "icon" for this type of soldier - I guess he is worthy of study in that regard as he does of some good things to say. For some reason, it has gone beyond that to the point where an Armoured CO who packs up his heavy vehicles and roams around the desert conducting disrupt operations is labelled the "Next Lawrence"....

So...do you think a movement should be to name Patreaus the next Allenby?

[William F. Owen]

So...do you think a movement should be to name Patreaus the next Allenby?

The COIN club are trying to do that!
I don't know Patreaus at all, or much of him. By all accounts a good commander, but based on purely on historical achievement, or even successful operations, I cannot see how he makes a list with Sherman, Jackson, Abrams, Patton and Puller on it.

Culturally biased, I'll admit, with the exception of Sherman, I'm more drawn to Monash, Slim and Allenby as teachers, with a very grudging respect for Montgomery.

"for every Napoleon. Alexander, and Jesus Christ that made roles of [sic] history, there were several born. Only the lucky ones made it to the summit."

speaks to Allenby's very self-effacing manner. He really is worthy of study by the modern US and UK Army's. He just knew how to fight. It didn't matter if it was regulars or irregulars - they all fall the same way!

[Hacksaw]

I did serve with Gen Petraeus on two different occassions... The first during OIF I... the second while as CAC Cdr...

I don't know whether he belongs with Sherman, Abrahms... etc... then again in the midst of their heyday, I'd hazard a guess they had as many detractors... far easier to see a great commander in hindsite than it is in plain view...

This is what I can state authoritatively about Petraeus as a wartime commander...
Lazer-like focus on mission command and communicating intent...
Power down authority...
both physical and moral courage in abundance...
Absolute comfort with decision making...
Rightfully tough on staff to get it right (sometimes leading to the reality or perception of mistrust)...
radiates confidence
Green Tab, Green Tab, Green Tab...

As Commander of CAC...
Intellectually rigorous...
tireless....
flat organization (probably too flat for even himself)...
radiates confidence...

All of which I think bodes well for how HISTORY will regard him... as is predictable, one of his greatest strengths is perhaps his blind spot - radiates confidence would probably also be fairly applied to your entire list...

We shall see, as a disclaimer, my service with the man was from a staff perspective (with lots of access)... I can't say I always liked the man, but that has no bearing... always respected though...

My two cents

Live well and row