The USMC in Helmand (merged thread)

[Valin]

Asia Times
Ali Gharib

WASHINGTON - After months of planning and putting pieces in order, aspects of the new United States strategy in Afghanistan are beginning to be concretely implemented - including a surge of troops and attempts to curtail the poppy trade that allegedly funds insurgents.

But some aspects of the new strategy are lagging behind, and questions linger about the feasibility of winning by concentrating new US forces in Afghanistan's south and east, where the Taliban has largely established full control.

On Thursday, 4,000 US Marines made their way by helicopter into Afghanistan's enormous Helmand province, a Taliban stronghold in the south where poppy cultivation runs rampant.....

[IntelTrooper]

Good for them... As an influential malik once told me, a meeting can have the highest quality food, the best accomodations, and the most important people attending, but without chai it is meaningless.

[mhusband]

I was sooo tired or chia by the time I left. But it is good for conversing with local nationals and safer than drinking a glass of water.

[goesh]

- an armed Peace Corps, well, I guess it could be worse somehow, not sure how though....its just the notion of gunfire and tea that bothers me when the grunts are conditioned on beer and soda and engaging - I just can't see them digging irrigation canals for instance or herding goats to generate warm fuzzy feelings amongst the people- I mean, what exactly are they supposed to do besides drink tea? Is, ah, seeking non-personal engagement with the taliban a part time job here or what? I sure hope this doesn't turn into a cluster F

[50Bravo]

I saw the video at this address:
http://www.breitbart.tv/valley-of-de...e-afghanistan/

Asked a recent Old Grad to whom I am related what he saw wrong and he said:
their fire was uncoordinated. they seemed to just be shooting. the squad leaders should have been directing fire on targets. suppressing fire is all well and good when it is asked for, but otherwise you end up in a situation like they did where they need to break contact because you cant sustain. the psg should have been on that instead of firing his own weapon.

for starters, if i knew an ambush was coming i wouldn't be waiting in the ducking alamo in downtown al-bhull####ville. it makes a great target, god forbid they have a mortar and know how to use it. i would need to see a map but id have made a show of running away, and hit em at night in or around town somewhere.

my saw gunners wont be emptying drums of ammunition at nothing, not twice anyway...

I added the following observations for his consideration and benefit:

If you are reasonably sure that there are bad guys in that hamlet you:

1. identify escape routes and put squad sized ambushes on those paths the night before, say 0300 or so.

2. using your whiz bang tech gps gear, you locate ambush sites precisely and then lay mortars in on the ambush positions to cover the squads retreat if they get more business than they can handle.

3. Whatever else you do, you show up at the hamlet at BMNT, not just in time for brunch, come on! Surprise is a dish best served at daybreak, not brunch.

4. PSG is doing video instead of helping PL direct the action shame on both

5. None of the marines in the video can see a target so by firing, they are telling enemy precisely where THEY are but enemy is not located. Your people should not be firing unless they have a target (exception- ambush that you are giving or receiving) also wasting ammo that they may need as you point out. There is even one Hue re-enactment where the guy sticks his weapon up over the wall and just hoses down the planet.

6. There ought to be another platoon or a company saddled up and ready to dance for just such situations so they can get behind em. if not, you move the platoon out and flank em or, if terrain won't permit, withdraw and hope they chase you.

That way your main body drives them into the ambushes in confusion instead of lollygagging up the hill in broad daylight so the bad guys can make an orderly retreat or set up their defenses.

Why send a platoon to hit and run. This did NOT work in Irag and didn't in Vietnam either. If you are going hunting in rough terrain, plan on staying and set up blocking positions first... or send in a smaller force and have a rifle co. saddled up to drop in behind the assholes once they engage and then smoke em.

If the hamlet is controlled by the Ban, then take it and hold it or set up camps outside... or relocate hamlet.
don't expect locals to support you if you can't protect them with either local militia or troops. if they don't want that protection then they are Ban symps and need to be relocated or dealt with otherwise.

remember, just because they aren't for the govt doesn't mean they are against you. not truly a binary situation.

so endeth the sermon.

We would appreciate other observations since said Old Grad will be there next year!

[Ken White]

That was really bad. Way, way too much just popping caps. Excessively long bursts on the 249s will destroy them sooner than necessary, aside from the waste of ammo. Firing them essentially offhand is of no value. I saw two Grenadiers launch 40mm rounds with no clue where they might land, a number of riflemen firing multiple shots in rapid succession almost certainly really unaimed, at least one firing an M4 on full auto which is pointless...

Those folks definitely need some training. I can never understand why leaders allow that kind of loose and pointless firing. We don't do the basics well at all and our lack of fire discipline is the prime indicator. In defense of that unit, same thing occurs all the time and did in other wars. Control of fire is not one of our strong points; we waste a LOT of ammo...

Not enough info on the tactical situation to say much on that aspect, though I agree with most of what you say as generically good.

[goesh]

- all points missed by the general Public, unfortunately - Obama made it clear this was where the war needed to be fought so my take is its a shot of PR, the good fight,quasi cool for arm chair soldiers in front of their flat screens safe at home, especially the guy spraying over the wall, they're left with maybe 20% of their ammo and the villagers chalk it off as another American loss -

[Rank amateur]

1) Do they have enough manpower to do what was suggested?
2) Why do you say "None of the marines in the video can see a target?" Reporter said they identified fire from 5 pairs of bad guys, hit several.
3) Village was cleared with no casualties. I'm not sure Obama was responsible, but it doesn't seem like a bad thing to be responsible for.

[Cavguy]

1) Do they have enough manpower to do what was suggested?
2) Why do you say "None of the marines in the video can see a target?" Reporter said they identified fire from 5 pairs of bad guys, hit several.
3) Village was cleared with no casualties. I'm not sure Obama was responsible, but it doesn't seem like a bad thing to be responsible for.

I'm always loathe to judge from my armchair far away, but the fire discipline didn't seem to be there relative to a unit w/500 engagements. Of course, this is a 3 min video covering an hour of combat. I was surprised to see the M4 "Pray and Spray" above the wall a few times. A lot of rapid semi-auto fire, which isn't good for accuracy. Fine if you have to suppress, and I couldn't judge the volume of incoming fire. I did think that SAW gunner was liberal with the whole 3-5 sec burst concept. When added to the other video posted a few weeks ago (ambush along a road), I am a little concerned that the mounted concept of OIF (always near vehicle, and on the roads) may teach bad habits for A-Stan regarding fire discipline, ammo conservation, and fire/maneuver.

As I pointed out to Bill though, there was a good NYT article a few months ago about a well executed deliberate ambush by our guys on the Taliban.

Again, hard to make sweeping judgments from short video clips.

Niel

[50Bravo]

I was less concerned about the manpower versus mission thing than the fact the force they did have did not appear to be well employed, was not using fire discipline, locating themselves where an 81 could do some serious damage etc. They never had the initiative. They were targets the whole way.
I guess the armor changes the way you approach that.

If they "cleared" the hamlet it only stayed clear for about 30 minutes after they left. If you rae taking ground, hold it. If you are hunting bad guys then there are better ways than walking into a situation where they chose the time and place to engage you.

Two more points:
an associate pointed out that they carry lots of gear. I don't see how you move quickly or quietly with all that gear, let alone the armor. I wonder if the tactics are not being dictated by the amount of gear they drag around.

finally, I don't believe that inconclusive engagements like this bear to our advantage. When they can engage us and break it off when they choose (as was the case here-that platoon had no chance to pursue), they are learning how we fight and we are simply weeding out the less competent ones. In a sense we bred a better insurgent. If we have the initiative, we can engage when it is decisive for the units involved and when we can inflict substantial casualties. If we do that, they don't get better with each engagement but when we let them make that choice we are just a teaching vehicle

[Ken White]

He, 50Bravo, I mean -- but they aren't, that's Co B, 1-26 Inf of 3d Bde, 1st Inf Division, US of A Army. Same Unit that had the film clip of the kid with the boxers standing at the parapet...

Numbers of casualties don't tell you much. As many rounds as the US side fired, many of which were unnecessary, they were bound to have hit something. He said inaccurate fire because there were a number of scenes of firing that could not possibly have been accurate. Like the grenade launched blind over the wall and the 20 round bursts from SAWs -- offhand.

I passed that link to a serving leader of bods (Thanks from he and I, 50Bravo) who plans on using that clip for a 'How not to do it' training aid for his troopies.

3) Village was cleared with no casualties. I'm not sure Obama was responsible, but it doesn't seem like a bad thing to be responsible for.

How in the world did Obama get into this?

[Boot]

My question is more of a equipment one. Wouldn't long rifles (M-16A4?) and longer barreled SAW's serve the Army or Marine Corps better in the open terrain of Afghanistan?
Yes they seemed to have fire discipline issues and the leadership didn't seem to control the fight, but OTOH, its hard to discern what is going on from this vantage point.

[Ken White]

My question is more of a equipment one. Wouldn't long rifles (M-16A4?) and longer barreled SAW's serve the Army or Marine Corps better in the open terrain of Afghanistan?

(a) They aren't high speed and low drag...

(b) The goal of the US army, I'm firmly convinced, is to have just one uniform type, one weapon type, one radio/comm type and one vehicle type for all units, all missions, all terrains, all climatic conditions...

Oh, and to further the interests of uniformity and to finally kill all aspects of General Purpose Design (GPD. Motto: "An Army of one." No one knew that's what they were really after...) they want All Systems Synchronized.

Also, no one will be authorized ANY hair...

[Kiwigrunt]

The goal of the US army, I'm firmly convinced, is to have just one uniform type, one weapon type, one radio/comm type and one vehicle type for all units, all missions, all terrains, all climatic conditions...

How about just having one type of mission, one type of terrain, one type of climate and one type of enemy? How simple would life be?

Also, no one will be authorized ANY hair...

Now that would avoid hair-raising situations....

[Ken White]

How about just having one type of mission, one type of terrain, one type of climate and one type of enemy? How simple would life be? ...Now that would avoid hair-raising situations....

be lurking. Fer gawd's sake, don't give 'em any ideas...

[slapout9]

(a) They aren't high speed and low drag...

(b) The goal of the US army, I'm firmly convinced, is to have just one uniform type, one weapon type, one radio/comm type and one vehicle type for all units, all missions, all terrains, all climatic conditions...

Oh, and to further the interests of uniformity and to finally kill all aspects of General Purpose Design (GPD. Motto: "An Army of one." No one knew that's what they were really after...) they want All Systems Synchronized.

Also, no one will be authorized ANY hair...

You can see the new stuff this Friday....Delta 6 Accelerator suits

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI36HkpftDc

[Ken White]

No two of 'em in the same uniform...

[JarodParker]

4. PSG is doing video instead of helping PL direct the action shame on both

In the PSG's defense I don't think he was actively filming video from a hand-held camcorder. The reporter said about the footage being from a helmet mounted cam. I believe that makes a big difference.

[JarodParker]

Some are touting this as the possible turning point for the Afghan campaign. Not sure if that's the expectation among the military inner circle or if this is just pundit talk and media hyperbole.
Telegraphing of intentions so civilians can flee, dug-in enemy, IED's and booby-traps, indigenous forces mixed in... sounds like Fallujah 3.0
Fallujah 3000 insurgents in a city with population of 425,000
Marjah 400-2000 insurgents in a town with population of 85,000 (Disclaimed: Wiki stats)

Marines push 'The Breacher' against Taliban lines

Nato begins major Afghanistan offensive (Video & Map)

US Marines, Afghan troops attack Taliban-held town

Marine commanders say they expect between 400 to 1,000 insurgents — including more than 100 foreign fighters — to be holed up in Marjah, a town of 80,000 people in Helmand province. Marjah is the biggest southern town under Taliban control and the linchpin of the militants' logistical and opium-smuggling network.

[Bob's World]

Marjah isn't a town.

Marjah is an area with a network of irrigation canals built by US AID in the 50s. Picture flying over Iowa or central valley's of California more than a town.

But with each farm a walled compound. Densely populated, and the heart of the Poppy growing region.