Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 174

Thread: The USMC in Helmand (merged thread)

  1. #41
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Honolulu, Hawaii
    Posts
    1,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rank amateur View Post
    1) Do they have enough manpower to do what was suggested?
    2) Why do you say "None of the marines in the video can see a target?" Reporter said they identified fire from 5 pairs of bad guys, hit several.
    3) Village was cleared with no casualties. I'm not sure Obama was responsible, but it doesn't seem like a bad thing to be responsible for.
    I'm always loathe to judge from my armchair far away, but the fire discipline didn't seem to be there relative to a unit w/500 engagements. Of course, this is a 3 min video covering an hour of combat. I was surprised to see the M4 "Pray and Spray" above the wall a few times. A lot of rapid semi-auto fire, which isn't good for accuracy. Fine if you have to suppress, and I couldn't judge the volume of incoming fire. I did think that SAW gunner was liberal with the whole 3-5 sec burst concept. When added to the other video posted a few weeks ago (ambush along a road), I am a little concerned that the mounted concept of OIF (always near vehicle, and on the roads) may teach bad habits for A-Stan regarding fire discipline, ammo conservation, and fire/maneuver.

    As I pointed out to Bill though, there was a good NYT article a few months ago about a well executed deliberate ambush by our guys on the Taliban.

    Again, hard to make sweeping judgments from short video clips.

    Niel
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
    Who is Cavguy?

  2. #42
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Houston, Tx
    Posts
    11

    Default Manpower in Helmand

    I was less concerned about the manpower versus mission thing than the fact the force they did have did not appear to be well employed, was not using fire discipline, locating themselves where an 81 could do some serious damage etc. They never had the initiative. They were targets the whole way.
    I guess the armor changes the way you approach that.

    If they "cleared" the hamlet it only stayed clear for about 30 minutes after they left. If you rae taking ground, hold it. If you are hunting bad guys then there are better ways than walking into a situation where they chose the time and place to engage you.

    Two more points:
    an associate pointed out that they carry lots of gear. I don't see how you move quickly or quietly with all that gear, let alone the armor. I wonder if the tactics are not being dictated by the amount of gear they drag around.

    finally, I don't believe that inconclusive engagements like this bear to our advantage. When they can engage us and break it off when they choose (as was the case here-that platoon had no chance to pursue), they are learning how we fight and we are simply weeding out the less competent ones. In a sense we bred a better insurgent. If we have the initiative, we can engage when it is decisive for the units involved and when we can inflict substantial casualties. If we do that, they don't get better with each engagement but when we let them make that choice we are just a teaching vehicle

    W. M. Treadway
    AUSA, Infantry
    Ft. Polk 1967
    Ft. Benning 1968
    MAT II-36 1969
    DSA Van Ninh District 1969

  3. #43
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
    Posts
    3,947

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    I'm always loathe to judge from my armchair far away, but the fire discipline didn't seem to be there relative to a unit w/500 engagements. Of course, this is a 3 min video covering an hour of combat.
    I have no credentials to judge what I see based on experience and I concur with armchair judgements, however....

    I think the men were aware of being filmed. I think they engaged in certain forms of behaviour based on that. The presenters comments strongly indicated he did not understand what he was seeing, and my guess is a very minor contact was dressed up to make it look like a big fire fight. (in the case of Blackwater videos from Iraq, no contact at all can be made into WW3)

    The "behaviours" you see replicated in numerous, "in action videos" are not necessarily effective actions.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  4. #44
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default I know he said they were Marines --

    He, 50Bravo, I mean -- but they aren't, that's Co B, 1-26 Inf of 3d Bde, 1st Inf Division, US of A Army. Same Unit that had the film clip of the kid with the boxers standing at the parapet...

    Numbers of casualties don't tell you much. As many rounds as the US side fired, many of which were unnecessary, they were bound to have hit something. He said inaccurate fire because there were a number of scenes of firing that could not possibly have been accurate. Like the grenade launched blind over the wall and the 20 round bursts from SAWs -- offhand.

    I passed that link to a serving leader of bods (Thanks from he and I, 50Bravo) who plans on using that clip for a 'How not to do it' training aid for his troopies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rank amateur View Post
    3) Village was cleared with no casualties. I'm not sure Obama was responsible, but it doesn't seem like a bad thing to be responsible for.
    How in the world did Obama get into this?

  5. #45
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Honolulu, Hawaii
    Posts
    1,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    He, 50Bravo, I mean -- but they aren't, that's Co B, 1-26 Inf of 3d Bde, 1st Inf Division, US of A Army. Same Unit that had the film clip of the kid with the boxers standing at the parapet...

    Numbers of casualties don't tell you much. As many rounds as the US side fired, many of which were unnecessary, they were bound to have hit something. He said inaccurate fire because there were a number of scenes of firing that could not possibly have been accurate. Like the grenade launched blind over the wall and the 20 round bursts from SAWs -- offhand.

    I passed that link to a serving leader of bods (Thanks from he and I, 50Bravo) who plans on using that clip for a 'How not to do it' training aid for his troopies. How in the world did Obama get into this?
    I posted it to company command and a few BCKS forums. Will see if anything develops, esp. on company command.
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
    Who is Cavguy?

  6. #46
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Could be interesting. Wilf's got a point,

    Joe, knowing a camera is about, can be prone to ham it up a bit...

    Like you, not enough to judge except that fire discipline has long been one of my pet peeves. We do not train it well...

  7. #47
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    1,177

    Default Nothing new under the sun...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin23 View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/wo...26marines.html

    It appears that the Taliban's tactics and strategy of fighting the US/NATO/Afghan government forces is evolving to become more coordinated than ever before. In a way the Taliban is becoming more advanced in the way they fight then the insurgency in Iraq. However like the article said they lack alot of the heavy explosives that the insurgency in Iraq had. Which if they happen to do could cause more problems then they already are know for US/NATO forces as well as for the government in Afghanistan.
    Just b/c they thought they saw it all in anbar...I dealt with the same problem with an IA unit from Ramadi assuming it was the worst ever battle...Their assumptions led to a high casualty rate for that battalion...I hope the Marines learn a bit faster...

    http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/jou...emp/50-few.pdf

    v/r

    Mike
    Last edited by MikeF; 08-05-2009 at 08:09 AM.

  8. #48
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Houston, Tx
    Posts
    11

    Default Sorry Marines

    I went back and listened again to the vid and those who correctly identified these guys as Army are correct. I mistakenly id'd them as Marines... my apologies to the USMC. I have been assured that no Marine would evah do that.

    W. M. Treadway
    AUSA, Infantry
    Ft. Polk 1967
    Ft. Benning 1968
    MAT II-36 1969
    DSA Van Ninh District 1969

  9. #49
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1

    Default

    In watching the video I agree that fire discipline was lacking especially for the 249 and 203 gunners. I was always taught that movement without fire was suicide and fire without movement was a waste of ammo. I do not want to monday morning quarterback the situation but the fight seemed to serve no purpose and there appeared to be no attempt to close with and kill/capture the enemy fighters.

    In regards to the amount of gear that our troops carry today it is often being dicatated from the rear and on high. Our infantry is no longer light and in fighting irregular forces we have placed ourselves at a disadvantage by reducing our ability to move quickly or quietly. I always attempted to shed gear but our politicians concern for our troops and their need to be seen supporting us by getting us the armour that we need meant I would wear front, rear, and side SAPI plates all day everyday. Our leaders in the field shoud determine what our troops need not politicians on the campaign trail.

  10. #50
    Council Member Boot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    87

    Default

    My question is more of a equipment one. Wouldn't long rifles (M-16A4?) and longer barreled SAW's serve the Army or Marine Corps better in the open terrain of Afghanistan?
    Yes they seemed to have fire discipline issues and the leadership didn't seem to control the fight, but OTOH, its hard to discern what is going on from this vantage point.

  11. #51
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Why, yes. But...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boot View Post
    My question is more of a equipment one. Wouldn't long rifles (M-16A4?) and longer barreled SAW's serve the Army or Marine Corps better in the open terrain of Afghanistan?
    (a) They aren't high speed and low drag...

    (b) The goal of the US army, I'm firmly convinced, is to have just one uniform type, one weapon type, one radio/comm type and one vehicle type for all units, all missions, all terrains, all climatic conditions...

    Oh, and to further the interests of uniformity and to finally kill all aspects of General Purpose Design (GPD. Motto: "An Army of one." No one knew that's what they were really after...) they want All Systems Synchronized.

    Also, no one will be authorized ANY hair...

  12. #52
    Council Member Kiwigrunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Auckland New Zealand
    Posts
    467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    The goal of the US army, I'm firmly convinced, is to have just one uniform type, one weapon type, one radio/comm type and one vehicle type for all units, all missions, all terrains, all climatic conditions...
    How about just having one type of mission, one type of terrain, one type of climate and one type of enemy? How simple would life be?

    Also, no one will be authorized ANY hair...
    Now that would avoid hair-raising situations....
    Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)

    All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
    (Arthur Schopenhauer)

    ONWARD

  13. #53
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Gaa-a-a-a-ahhh!!! Ssh. They may

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwigrunt View Post
    How about just having one type of mission, one type of terrain, one type of climate and one type of enemy? How simple would life be? ...Now that would avoid hair-raising situations....
    be lurking. Fer gawd's sake, don't give 'em any ideas...

  14. #54
    Council Member IntelTrooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    RC-S, Afghanistan
    Posts
    302

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    be lurking. Fer gawd's sake, don't give 'em any ideas...
    Everyone knows, the most disciplined soldiers can stop facial hair growth at will. They shave every day anyway because it's the rules, and never get razor burn.
    "The status quo is not sustainable. All of DoD needs to be placed in a large bag and thoroughly shaken. Bureaucracy and micromanagement kill."
    -- Ken White


    "With a plan this complex, nothing can go wrong." -- Schmedlap

    "We are unlikely to usefully replicate the insights those unencumbered by a military staff college education might actually have." -- William F. Owen

  15. #55
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Uh huh, I told you to turn in those

    'Go' pills before you rotated. Windburn and chapped face indeed...

  16. #56
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Eustis
    Posts
    71

    Default Viper Company

    I know these guys pretty well. I was their O/C at NTC back in January 2008. They were a good company with a very good commander. They were definitely the cream of the crop in the battalion. However, I too was dismayed by some things in the video, particularly the M203 blind over the wall.

    One thing it is hard to train at places like NTC is these sustained firefights. We really tried to do this and by the time we did the next A'stan rotation at NTC, there was a method to 'surge' the OPFOR for lengthy (over 15 minutes - usually 45-60 minutes) firefights.

    Niel, the nice ambush was also conducted by these guys - just days after an IED along a trail killed a brand new replacement troop. They have taken some hard licks but they also delivered some.

    The reporter, Richard Engel, has shot a lot of video with these guys. He has been embedded over the course of the year for several weeks at a time, from what I can tell. In one series, they maneuvered a platoon as bait and came into contact. While engaging the Taliban with mortars, they had a fratricide against one of their own (from the mortars). You could see the frustration/pain on the face of the commander when he got the report.

    I agree that the performance wasn't the best. An interesting point may be turnover in leadership. I am pretty sure the platoon leader didn't go through the train-up at NTC. It is possible the platoon sergeant didn't either. With injuries, a 36-man Army infantry platoon can pretty quickly look like less than 2 squads of Marines. I doubt they have more than 2 full squads plus weapons squad to maneuver with at this point.

    Also it didn't seem like much more than a squad was involved with this mission. What were the rest doing? Probably holding the fort back at their platoon COP. This is some amazing terrain and movement at night is pretty hazardous, especially when burdened with all the crap they are required to carry. With the enemy having fantastic ISR, it is hard to get to a vantage point over them. They know where we are and attack when they think they may have an advantage. If we put out ambushes anywhere near a village, the Taliban will probably know and just not show up.

    I am not sure where the Korengal valley fits into the big picture but I am sure that Viper Company, and the rest of their battalion, is an economy-of-force. They don't have the manpower to hold all the valley, so they kick out these patrols to keep the enemy from getting established close to their COP. It isn't pretty, but it seems to be all they can manage at this point.

    Tankersteve

  17. #57
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    (a) They aren't high speed and low drag...

    (b) The goal of the US army, I'm firmly convinced, is to have just one uniform type, one weapon type, one radio/comm type and one vehicle type for all units, all missions, all terrains, all climatic conditions...

    Oh, and to further the interests of uniformity and to finally kill all aspects of General Purpose Design (GPD. Motto: "An Army of one." No one knew that's what they were really after...) they want All Systems Synchronized.

    Also, no one will be authorized ANY hair...
    You can see the new stuff this Friday....Delta 6 Accelerator suits

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI36HkpftDc

  18. #58
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Looked like a bunch of Tankers to me, Slap

    No two of 'em in the same uniform...

  19. #59
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    No two of 'em in the same uniform...

    spilled my drink over that one.

  20. #60
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    People's Republic of California
    Posts
    85

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 50Bravo View Post
    4. PSG is doing video instead of helping PL direct the action shame on both
    In the PSG's defense I don't think he was actively filming video from a hand-held camcorder. The reporter said about the footage being from a helmet mounted cam. I believe that makes a big difference.

Similar Threads

  1. The David Kilcullen Collection (merged thread)
    By Fabius Maximus in forum Doctrine & TTPs
    Replies: 451
    Last Post: 03-31-2016, 03:23 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •