A Look down the Slippery Slope

[Entropy]

A Look down the Slippery Slope
Domestic Operations, Outsourcing, and the Erosion of Military Culture

Editorial Abstract: Two simultaneous trends inside America’s military culture—its increasingly domestic role and its growing reliance upon defense contractors—illustrate considerable fundamental differences between uniformed military personnel and their commercially oriented counterparts. Employing a future scenario, the author contends that the growing civilian influence over formerly military endeavors will likely lead to serious trouble over time. If that is true, America’s long-term ability to project combat power may ultimately falter as well.

An interesting and thought-provoking article.

[Ken White]

also seems to be in the excessively Malthusian mode. I'm reminded of then LTC Dunlap's 1992 expressed concern for the coup of 2012...

A potential replacement???

On an equally serious note, military use in civilian law enforcement operations has been excessive and bears considerable watching. I agree that we've overdone the contracting bit in some respects -- but have to say that the use of contractors is necessary and even, for many things, desirable. I am not a fan of having troops cut grass or paint buildings for example -- nor is putting an 18 year old MP on a gate particularly smart...

That said, we need to get better at Contract writing and supervision.

[Anthony Hoh]

I cant understand how a contractor can make twice as much as a Soldier in the same capacty while the goverment saves money. I realize thier are costs other than salary, health care, uniforms, training, etc... but I cant wrap my head around how contracts are so much cheaper when the Army trains and deploys on such a huge scale. If anyone can expand my knowledge on this I would appreciate it.

[davidbfpo]

Within the article are these famous words:

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

“Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961,” Avalon Project at Yale Law School,

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/pr...hes/eisenhower 001.htm

No better warning.

davidbfpo

[Entropy]

I cant understand how a contractor can make twice as much as a Soldier in the same capacty while the goverment saves money. I realize thier are costs other than salary, health care, uniforms, training, etc... but I cant wrap my head around how contracts are so much cheaper when the Army trains and deploys on such a huge scale. If anyone can expand my knowledge on this I would appreciate it.

my understanding is that a lot of it has to do with legacy costs. With contractors one doesn't have to worry about paying lifetime retirement and healthcare. Additionally, there is flexibility - it's easier to ramp up contracting support and then get rid of it.

Ken,

I know you're a huge fan of Intel, so I thought I'd pass this along on contract writing!

[Ken White]

my understanding is that a lot of it has to do with legacy costs. With contractors one doesn't have to worry about paying lifetime retirement and healthcare. Additionally, there is flexibility - it's easier to ramp up contracting support and then get rid of it.

When it gets to the point that 65% of DoD healthcare costs go to Retirees -- and that's about where we are -- something is way, way, wrong. We have not done that well and much as I harp on congress, it's not ALL their fault...

I know you're a huge fan of Intel, so I thought I'd pass this along on contract writing!

Priceless -- and a great example of how the linear, worry about today mentality that pervades the US guvmint is directly responsible for our lack of continuity in many things.

[120mm]

I cant understand how a contractor can make twice as much as a Soldier in the same capacty while the goverment saves money. I realize thier are costs other than salary, health care, uniforms, training, etc... but I cant wrap my head around how contracts are so much cheaper when the Army trains and deploys on such a huge scale. If anyone can expand my knowledge on this I would appreciate it.

I'd like you to show me this alleged "contractor who makes twice as much as a Soldier in the same capacity"...

Our company hires contractors who are retired and reserve Field Grades, and pays them at the E-5/E-6 level for O-4/O-5 work, with no institutional support outside of access to PX/Commissary and housing allowance.

There might BE some of these well-paid contractors, but I don't know any of them. Most of us do this because a) we are reservists whose employability has been destroyed by multiple deployments. b) we're retired, and are doing this to "stay in the game" in some fashion or c) it's a hobby job that keeps us living in interesting places.

Of course, "contractors" are the bogey man and are often scapegoated when Active Duty types screw the pooch. Now THAT benefit is worth any cost to certain Senior Officers I know....

[Hacksaw]

Thanks for writing the message I thought I would have to until I reached the end of the thread. Really twice as much.... I essentially do the job I last held in the military at 2/3 the pay, and oh by the way I have to do all my leading through moral suassion. Not that I'm complaining because my government customer is a SWC member. Just don't want to hear about the 2 x pay comment anymore.

Live well and row brother

[Tom Odom]

Thanks for writing the message I thought I would have to until I reached the end of the thread. Really twice as much.... I essentially do the job I last held in the military at 2/3 the pay, and oh by the way I have to do all my leading through moral suassion. Not that I'm complaining because my government customer is a SWC member. Just don't want to hear about the 2 x pay comment anymore.

Live well and row brother

I understand your view on contractors. I also take your points on pay scales and abuse of those pay scales by the larger contractors.

But I would also say that 120 and you are both somewhat taking Tony Hoh's rhetorical question on the issue somewhat out of context. That is to say, Tony was referring to contractors in the theater of of operations--that would include Iraq and Afghanistan and not Germany or Kansas.

In that regard, 2x or 3x the salary is not at all a stretch.

Tom

[Cavguy]

Thanks for writing the message I thought I would have to until I reached the end of the thread. Really twice as much.... I essentially do the job I last held in the military at 2/3 the pay, and oh by the way I have to do all my leading through moral suassion. Not that I'm complaining because my government customer is a SWC member. Just don't want to hear about the 2 x pay comment anymore.

Live well and row brother

And here I thought I was overpaying you .....

Row harder!

Seriously, the advantage of contractors (wherever) is that you don't pay for long term benefits and you can rapidly hire/fire capacity, which you can't do with DA CIVs. To do this, you usually pay more short term but incur significant long term savings.

Which is why they have to pay so much for contractors in Iraq - it's hard to get people to willingly go there! So the market commands salaries comensurate with the risk. But once Iraq is over all of them are out of jobs. The soldier still has his.

It's also a good deal for the retired folk stateside - the pay may be less than your salary pre-retirement, but added to the 50% it's not bad living .... Main thing is the loss of BAH, BAS, etc. Also, we continue to draw on their skills - I know Hacksaw's 20 years of service has kept my ass out of a sling many times - so much so I wrote "Keep Cav's ass out of sling" into the contract!

[Anthony Hoh]

That said, we need to get better at Contract writing and supervision.

Ken,
The Army will contract someone out to make sure that happens

No Slack!

[Ken White]

.............. :d