Wear of the Uniform/Appearance Off-Installation

[patmc]

It is great to see that the Army is not currently gainfully employed and has enough free time to change the uniform... again. The Dress Blues look sharp and have more impact bc you only wear them on special occasions. If they add patches and flare, it will ruin the uniform.

The SMA ran with the 82nd last week (nobody pointed out he is not airborne) when he was here on Bragg. I wonder if he checked any barracks? Clearly a new uniform deserved more attention than taking care of Soldiers or fighting a war these past couple years.

Sir, I really hope this is a rumor/joke.

Rumor control from SMA's Preston's brief I sat in is that current A's/B's begin going away on 14 June and are replaced by a mod of the current dress blue uniform. It's been rumored/staffed for quite awhile but will reportedly be announced then.

No more greens! Of course, there will be a 2-3 year "wear out".

[John T. Fishel]

a DA and DOD civilian. I well remember when Class A and B were the only authorized uniforms off post and for office wear. I also recall when the army started wearing BDUs in the office and the classroom in the early 90s (perhaps the late 80s). But there were the DACs always in coat and tie. It seemed to me (and still seems the same) that if soldiers wear ACUs to the office the DACs should wear blue jeans, tee shirts, and sneakers - same-o same-o.

Regarding beards: the old saw about can't get a seal on the protective mask is just that. I mentioned that reason in 1970 to a distant cousin who skippered a nuclear attack sub. He replied that his crew had been the test population and they got seals just fine - thank you very much!

Cheers

JohnT

[slapout9]

When I was in the 82nd 72-75 you could not where fatigues (thats what they were called back then) off post except inside your POV to and from work. Two exceptions were flat tire,break down etc., the other was to get gas. The gas exception was added after the first Arab Oil embargo, reason being for a while the whole state of North Carolina was on rationing. Odd number license plates could get gas one day, even numbers the next. So if you were getting gas you were allowed to pump it,pay for and get back in your car. The reason for this was that self serve gas stations were just starting to get going compared to full service ones, so higher HQ thought it was ok for the troops to save some money by being in fatigues for a few minutes. This may seem strange to the younger folks but this was a very big deal back then. Oh yea if got caught violating this you were subject to an Article 15 Never heard of it happening though.

[Old Eagle]

Soldiers in public should look like civilians or pretty girls in their spiffy As or Bs.

To John T -- I used to love the fact that in the 5-sided nuthouse, we could wear the open collar B when those low life civilians and contractors had to strangle themselves with ties. Even in the winter, we could wear a sweater w/ opened neck shirt. Of course, we all had dress up clothes in case we were called upon to perform in some sort of command function. Not only that, when Max Thurman was the Vice, you had to wear the saucer cap whenever you travelled with him, not the c--t (garrison) cap.

As to beards, long hair, etc., it doesn't matter what the standard is, just that it is enforced. If the standard is 5" hair, better not be 6. If the sideburns can extend to the tragus (look it up), then they better not be longer. If moustaches can't extend below the lower lip, so be it. After the shirts vs skins ball game for PT, everybody gets back in uniform for the run back to the company area. Just set a standard and then enforce it. In this world, discipline rules.

Of course, a whole bunch of you better be enjoying the popularity of shaved heads.

[John T. Fishel]

Old Eagle. Reminds me that the last time I looked at the haircut reg (long ago and far away) it prohibited "extreme" styles!o

Cheers

JohnT

[Cavguy]

It is great to see that the Army is not currently gainfully employed and has enough free time to change the uniform... again. The Dress Blues look sharp and have more impact bc you only wear them on special occasions. If they add patches and flare, it will ruin the uniform.

I don't think they're adding much flair. There was a survey sent out via AKO awhile ago seeking opinions about how to replicate the SSI and FWTS patches on the uniforms. I think they're going for pin on crests.

The SMA ran with the 82nd last week (nobody pointed out he is not airborne) when he was here on Bragg. I wonder if he checked any barracks? Clearly a new uniform deserved more attention than taking care of Soldiers or fighting a war these past couple years.

I assume you're being sly here. Just because he wasn't offered the opportunity as a 19K to throw himself out of an airplane 5 times makes him ineligible as SMA to run with the 82d? If he's not air assault, can he not run with the 101st?

I always base my opinions on people by the tabs they wear and not by who they are. He wasn't selected as SMA for being an idiot.

Sir, I really hope this is a rumor/joke.

I doubt it, this move started under Shoomaker. The general argument is that in the long run it will be cheaper for the soldiers. Only two uniforms to maintain (ACU and Dress), unless you opt for mess dress (chicks dig it).

I personally hate green A's/B's. Blues will be much better as long as they don't kill it with flair, as you said.

The pant will change from a suspender to a belted version. A grey shirt will be fielded which will be the "Class B" shirt for the uniform.

Also this from Marlow White's website:

Dress Blue Uniform Change Update (6 Mar 08): GEN Casey has commented recently that an announcement concerning the Dress Blue Uniform Change is likely to occur early this summer. Our guess is that such an announcement would be on June 14 (Army's Birthday) as previous major uniform changes have been announced on that date. Currently, the "Class A" version of the Dress Blue is not implemented and the Class A Green Uniform is still in effect. Marlow White is NOT a member of the Army Uniform Board; however, the industry's expectations are that the Army's Dress uniform will become a variation of the current Dress Blue Uniform.

Also This from the Army's own news release (dated):

WASHINGTON (Army News Service - June 6, 2006) -- Army service uniforms will be streamlined to one blue Army Service Uniform, the Army announced today.

“World-class Soldiers deserve a simplified, quality uniform. The blue Army Service Uniform is a traditional uniform that is consistent with the Army’s most honored traditions,” said Sgt. Maj. Of the Army Kenneth O. Preston.

“We have all of these variations of uniforms – green, blue and white,” said Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker. “It makes sense for us to go to one traditional uniform that is really sharp and high quality and which Soldiers will be very proud to wear. And that’s what we’ve done by adopting this blue Army Service Uniform that reflects simplicity, quality, utility and tradition.”

Many Soldiers already own an Army blue uniform (now to be called the Army Service Uniform) and may continue to wear it. Improvements will be made to the fabric and fit. Reduction of the number of uniforms will reduce the burden on Soldiers for purchases and alteration cost.

Introduction in the Army Military Clothing Sales Stores should begin in fourth quarter of fiscal year 2007. Introduction in the Clothing Bag should begin first quarter 2009. The Mandatory Possession Date is expected to be fourth quarter fiscal year 2011.

A wear-out date for the Army Green Class A and White dress uniforms will be determined at a later date.

The consolidation of Army service uniforms is part of a streamlining process. In 2004, the Army reduced the number of battle dress uniforms from three to one when it adopted the Army Combat Uniform in place of the Woodland Green Battle Dress Uniform (winter and summer versions) and the Desert Combat Uniform. That uniform consolidation has been a resounding success in terms of Soldier acceptance and reducing the variety of combat uniforms with which they must deal.

[TheCurmudgeon]

The pant will change from a suspender to a belted version. A grey shirt will be fielded which will be the "Class B" shirt for the uniform.

:

Last I heard the grey shirt was out. No patches. A combat unit affiliation pin could be worn on the left side above the unit awards.

Also rumor control had it that the new "B" uniform would be the ACUs with colored rather than subdued patches, so there may be no need to alter the pants.

[120mm]

I HATE Class "As" First and foremost, they are designed for fat people.

Kind of like a Maternity Mini-skirt for men....

In my 26 year career, 6 of which were active, I think I've worn my Class "As" 8 or 9 times. My Mess Dress, though, I'm busily attempting to wear out.

We need ONE dress uniform and ONE basic field uniform, and both need to be adaptible to different situations, imo.

And on the subject of Class B's, Nearly every single time me or one of my guys were truly screwed over by someone, it's usually someone who wore Class B uniform. I say those people could wear something Day-Glo pink with a big "Blue Falcon" stenciled front and back....

[Schmedlap]

I'm glad that the emphasis upon starch and shoe polish disappeared with the change from BDU/DCU to ACU. I hated the rationale that your DUTY/FIELD uniform does not look professional unless it is starched, and your boots are not presentable if you cannot use them to signal an aircraft. Where did that come from? How about neat, clean, and serviceable uniforms and clean, blackened, neat, serviceable boots? Why was that unacceptable? It was a waste of time and money to get uniforms starched and to spit shine boots when just buffing them with a brush was adequate (and met the standards in 670-1). Switching to ACU's almost makes up for the black beret boner (aka, the chef hat, given how many seem to improperly sport it).

Likewise the decision to go to one uniform also makes sense. Given how rarely most Soldiers actually wear the class A and B, replacing them with one makes more sense from both a financal standpoint and one of simplicity in the busy lives of Soldiers and their families.

Next on my wish list: stop wearing helmets and various other field gear at parades. What is that all about? It is not a uniform item (it is equipment), it does not look impressive, and it does not reflect what we wear in battle - so what is the point? When I PCS'd to the DC area, I went to CIF and was issued a old-school kevlar helmet and LCE (in late 2006). Why? In case I needed to participate in a parade or ceremony. I got a separate ACH, Interceptor, and MOLLE gear for more practical purposes. That was so stupid. And did anyone see photos of President Bush pinning the Distinguished Service Cross on two 82nd ABN Soldiers last week? Did you see the officer (could not see his rank) who was also in the photo? He was wearing a stripped down Interceptor (with no SAPI's) and a red beret. What is that all about? Is that supposed to look super disciplined or professional?

[Tacitus]

I hated the rationale that your DUTY/FIELD uniform does not look professional unless it is starched, and your boots are not presentable if you cannot use them to signal an aircraft. Where did that come from?

I vividly remember standing in formation to hear a battalion commander rail about how he didn't want to see any starched BDUs, that that was in fact, against regulations, and he was going to make life hell for anybody he saw with them on. Then having NCOs make life difficult for us soldiers if our BDUs didn't look like they were starched. What to do?

It was then, at that moment, that I realized that Catch-22 wasn't merely a good novel and work of fiction, but something accurate that I would just have to learn to live with in the military.

That BC had to have seen soldiers walking around all the time with starched BDUs afterwards, but I never heard of anybody getting in trouble for it. The feeling in the ranks was that if (the mysterious "They") had it in for you, this was a sort of selective enforcement of regulations they would get you for, if they wanted to.

[wm]

I vividly remember standing in formation to hear a battalion commander rail about how he didn't want to see any starched BDUs, that that was in fact, against regulations, and he was going to make life hell for anybody he saw with them on. Then having NCOs make life difficult for us soldiers if our BDUs didn't look like they were starched. What to do?

It was then, at that moment, that I realized that Catch-22 wasn't merely a good novel and work of fiction, but something accurate that I would just have to learn to live with in the military.

That BC had to have seen soldiers walking around all the time with starched BDUs afterwards, but I never heard of anybody getting in trouble for it. The feeling in the ranks was that if (the mysterious "They") had it in for you, this was a sort of selective enforcement of regulations they would get you for, if they wanted to.

Pre-BDUs we had "permanent press" (better know as permanent wrinkle) fatigues that I remember being told to get starched. And, of course, before those bad boys, we had the real starched cotton fatigues that you could stand up in the corner if you had a good QM laundry or a mama san laundry lady who knew what heavy starch meant.

For a real golden oldie, who, besides Ken, remembers, the Louisville cap (AKA the Fidel Castro Cap)? Some hot shot put a cardboard circle in a standard issue fatigue baseball cap and created it. As far as I can recall, it was never an Army clothing bag item, but it was required for wear.

[Uboat509]

The SMA ran with the 82nd last week (nobody pointed out he is not airborne) when he was here on Bragg.

So he wasn't infantry, so what? We can't all be rock stars. SOMEBODY has to cook the food, fix the trucks, drive the tanks, etc. I, for one, don't see any reason why one of the infantry support MOSs can't be SMA.

SFC W

[patmc]

I'm not infantry. Most guys at Bragg are not infantry, but most are airborne. I love the support guys; they work harder than most of the combat arms. No complaints there.

The Fayetteville Observer (all the news that's fit to print) and the Paraglide (Bragg's paper) were plastered with photos of the Division Run. Everyone at work pointed out SMA was wearing an Airborne shirt. Was my comment stupid? Of course it was, but this is Fort Bragg. And definately no offense to any 19 series guys. They protected my ass when I needed it.

Regardless, I still think there are more pressing issues at hand than changing the dress uniform. Fix housing, training, dwell time, medical care, etc. then worry about a uniform you wear once a month.

So he wasn't infantry, so what? We can't all be rock stars. SOMEBODY has to cook the food, fix the trucks, drive the tanks, etc. I, for one, don't see any reason why one of the infantry support MOSs can't be SMA.

SFC W

[RTK]

I'm not infantry. Most guys at Bragg are not infantry, but most are airborne. I love the support guys; they work harder than most of the combat arms. No complaints there.

The Fayetteville Observer (all the news that's fit to print) and the Paraglide (Bragg's paper) were plastered with photos of the Division Run. Everyone at work pointed out SMA was wearing an Airborne shirt. Was my comment stupid? Of course it was, but this is Fort Bragg. And definately no offense to any 19 series guys. They protected my ass when I needed it.

I've never had anyone, to include those with long or short tabs, deny themselves an opportunity to one of my Bradleys or Abrams. Maybe it was because I'm airborne qualified....

Who gives two S*&ts if SMA Preston was wearing an Airborne shirt or not? I guarentee SMA Preston did not go to the main PX at Bragg after he got of the C-12 and bought the shirt himself. Did he earn the parachutist badge? No. Did he earn the right to wear a shirt gifted to him by the post commander and run with his Soldiers? Yes - because he's the Sergeant Major of the Army.

The armor community didn't bitch when SMA Hall came and shot off a tank at Knox, even though he didn't go through TCGST. So I ask the larger question; who has more time - the powers that be for changing the uniform or the dirt darts arguing in the company supply and admin area over whether or not the SMA can run with their unit, even though he's not "qualified?"

By the way, 3 of the last 4 Sergeants Major of the Armor have been either Scouts or Tankers.