Wear of the Uniform/Appearance Off-Installation

[Tom Odom]

But then, there was also that story in the papers recently about RAF men in Peterborough (not far from me) being told not to wear their uniforms out in public.

seek Kipling's Tommy for a historical take on this...

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I happened on a discussion on a Brit press web site about a move to finally give RAF Bomber Command veterans a gong for their sacrifices in WWII. Despite the so-called safer night attacks, Bomber Command lost more bombers in the same month that the 8th mounted the Schweinfurt raids. It was amzing to see some of the utterly senseless vituperative posts against the move because the veterans were "war criminals".

We have gone through it here in the States. Ken's experiences I am sure attest to it. As members of the Army in the 70s, we were prohibited from wearing uniforms in the national capitol region under Peanuts Carter. At the same time, we were getting letters about how to apply for food stamps...

Hopefully we will not repeat that.

Tom

[Norfolk]

I've been here a bit longer, but see things the same way. Hard to have a day go by without seeing a story about slashed military funding or overstretch in the Telegraph. If Brown goes, I think that'll be pretty far down the lists of reasons why. But I also suspect the Tories wouldn't be much better, because they're just basically New Labour Lite now anyway.

Part of the issue may be that, at least as far as I've seen, ordinary squaddies aren't too well regarded. The usual stuff about drinking too much, starting fights, etc. Maybe things are the same if you live in a military town in the States like Fayetteville, I don't know, we don't have too many of those in New England. But then, there was also that story in the papers recently about RAF men in Peterborough (not far from me) being told not to wear their uniforms out in public.

I can remember in the 90's how the Canadian Forces were ordered by the Department of National Defense not to wear their uniforms off-duty or even in public while on-duty when possible. Unless troops are driving between bases (and wearing combat dress), the public practically never sees a uniformed soldier or officer in real life, even now.

[ODB]

I am a complete fan of not wearing uniforms in public. For a decade now I leave them at work. Ever see the post man walking around the mall after work in uniform? The UPS man? FEDEX? It is what I wear for work some days..... Nothing I hate more than seeing "Joe" in ACUs walking around the mall at 11 a.m. or even at 6 p.m. Then there are those who fly in them, understand returning from deployment, but many have regular clothes with them, you mean to tell me they didn't have 2 minutesto change in all the above cases. My final thought on this is considering today's enemy/threat I am amazed we (service members) have not been actively targeted here at home. This is a lot of my reasoning for my thoughts on this, the less I can make myself and my family a target the better. I even hate the fact I have to have a DOD decal on my vehicle to get on post. Just my .02 cents worth.

[Fuchs]

German soldiers are told that they can use the uniform whenever they want, but they need to behave properly and shall not mix uniform with visible civilian clothes ("Univil").

I heard about this
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/0...h-to-outl.html
on BFBS yesterday. This is probably a fail safe evidence for significant problems of that army.

[MattC86]

German soldiers are told that they can use the uniform whenever they want, but they need to behave properly and shall not mix uniform with visible civilian clothes ("Univil").

I heard about this
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/0...h-to-outl.html
on BFBS yesterday. This is probably a fail safe evidence for significant problems of that army.

I was recently at the Koblenz train station, and there were dozens of German soldiers, best as I could figure returning from reservist or conscript duty (do the Germans still have conscription?). . .they were in full uniform, but many had long hair, facial hair, piercings (not even just ears) and even coloured hair. I was waiting for a monocled Prussian in jackboots to come storming in and give them the whip, but it didn't happen.

I know reservists (an all countries) tend to look less stringently military than their active duty comrades, but these guys were still on duty and were sporting personal appearances that didn't just occur for the morning train ride home to their lives. As someone who doesn't particularly like seeing the uniform off post, seeing the uniform (even German) represented so was quite a shock to me.

Getting back to the issue at hand in the UK, I wonder if the difference in public perception is noticeable even in the new TV series "Warship" chronicling life on HMS Illustrious. Whereas in the US, this show would feature heavy metal music and a very serious Lt. Commander explaining the "awesome capabilities" of his warship, the UK series closely examines the Chinese Laundrymen (stunned they still have those) and the RN's football team as it competes with the RAF. More of a "lives of British sailors in the service" rather than a "We're the US Navy, and let me show you how we put the fear of God into people" kind of approach.

I think the British people as a whole are very ambivalent about their military, much as they are ambivalent about their role in the world with the collapse of the Empire. People I've talked to (granted, these are most definitely not military professionals) scoff at the concept of a "long war," which even a considerable segment of the US population takes for granted.

In short, the political disconnect with the UK and its military is, I believe, inseparable from the continued conflict within UK foreign policy about its position in the world order - still caught at the edge of Europe and the Transatlantic relationship. . . I'm not sure you can separate those issues.

Regards,

Matt

[Fuchs]

I was recently at the Koblenz train station, and there were dozens of German soldiers, best as I could figure returning from reservist or conscript duty (do the Germans still have conscription?). . .they were in full uniform, but many had long hair, facial hair, piercings (not even just ears) and even coloured hair. I was waiting for a monocled Prussian in jackboots to come storming in and give them the whip, but it didn't happen.

I know reservists (an all countries) tend to look less stringently military than their active duty comrades, but these guys were still on duty and were sporting personal appearances that didn't just occur for the morning train ride home to their lives. As someone who doesn't particularly like seeing the uniform off post, seeing the uniform (even German) represented so was quite a shock to me.

The regulations are not very explicit, they merely ask for a "gepflegte" appearance. That's difficult to translate. Basically it means that the soldier shall care about how he looks.
colored hair - depends on Disziplinarvorgesetzter afaik (CO who's responsible for judging on minor offences, usually a captain)
tattoo - should be hidden afaik
facial hair - no problem if it's no 3-day-beard
long hair - allowed since 70's (we had a court judging on this, afterwards long-haired soldiers had to use a net under the helmet iirc)
I'm out of active duty since several years, though.
monocle officer - a stereotype that was never really representative
Our conscription is just nine months, but many extend it for some months with better pay.

I wonder why the British have apparently such prestige/reputation troubles.
That's certainly a terrible outlook for long-term recruiting especially of NCOs and officers! It might also affect the budget, which is defined in a democratic political process, after all.

We in Germany have a rather good relationship, the Germans have concluded peace with their own military sometime in the 90's. The left wing isn't any more like in the 70's/80's, not the least because many conditions have changed.
Our SecDefs were in the focus of critique (for really, really good reasons), not the troops themselves. We have about once per year a minor scandal like tasteless photos and about the KSK, that's it.

[mmx1]

Getting back to the issue at hand in the UK, I wonder if the difference in public perception is noticeable even in the new TV series "Warship" chronicling life on HMS Illustrious. Whereas in the US, this show would feature heavy metal music and a very serious Lt. Commander explaining the "awesome capabilities" of his warship, the UK series closely examines the Chinese Laundrymen (stunned they still have those) and the RN's football team as it competes with the RAF. More of a "lives of British sailors in the service" rather than a "We're the US Navy, and let me show you how we put the fear of God into people" kind of approach.

I don't know if you've been following this from overseas, but that's just like the PBS miniseries "Carrier" last month.

[Cavguy]

I am a complete fan of not wearing uniforms in public. For a decade now I leave them at work. Ever see the post man walking around the mall after work in uniform? The UPS man? FEDEX? It is what I wear for work some days..... Nothing I hate more than seeing "Joe" in ACUs walking around the mall at 11 a.m. or even at 6 p.m. Then there are those who fly in them, understand returning from deployment, but many have regular clothes with them, you mean to tell me they didn't have 2 minutesto change in all the above cases. My final thought on this is considering today's enemy/threat I am amazed we (service members) have not been actively targeted here at home. This is a lot of my reasoning for my thoughts on this, the less I can make myself and my family a target the better. I even hate the fact I have to have a DOD decal on my vehicle to get on post. Just my .02 cents worth.

You'd probably find it interesting that SMA Preston asked all the attendees at the Armor Conference to wear their uniforms when traveling TDY - he felt it was a great chance to get into conversations with civilians about the Army - good recruiting marketing.

I don't buy the "target" argument domestically. Overseas it makes sense, but I think that's overblown fear-mongering.

The one time I traveled in uniformed I was humbled and even embarassed at the amount of positive attention I received, including lots of questions from a curious public. I kind of see SMA Preston's point. Why not allow the uniform (as long as properly worn) off post?

MattC, concur on the Bundeswehr's grooming standards. Goatees, colored hair, and earrings are standard for the conscripts, as far as I can tell. (Yes, they have conscription). I don't see the colored hair among the "regulars" though.

(I'm secretly jealous of the Goatees).