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Thread: Wear of the Uniform/Appearance Off-Installation

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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Default Wear of the Uniform/Appearance Off-Installation

    But then, there was also that story in the papers recently about RAF men in Peterborough (not far from me) being told not to wear their uniforms out in public.
    seek Kipling's Tommy for a historical take on this...

    I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
    The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
    The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
    But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
    I happened on a discussion on a Brit press web site about a move to finally give RAF Bomber Command veterans a gong for their sacrifices in WWII. Despite the so-called safer night attacks, Bomber Command lost more bombers in the same month that the 8th mounted the Schweinfurt raids. It was amzing to see some of the utterly senseless vituperative posts against the move because the veterans were "war criminals".

    We have gone through it here in the States. Ken's experiences I am sure attest to it. As members of the Army in the 70s, we were prohibited from wearing uniforms in the national capitol region under Peanuts Carter. At the same time, we were getting letters about how to apply for food stamps...

    Hopefully we will not repeat that.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite_State View Post
    I've been here a bit longer, but see things the same way. Hard to have a day go by without seeing a story about slashed military funding or overstretch in the Telegraph. If Brown goes, I think that'll be pretty far down the lists of reasons why. But I also suspect the Tories wouldn't be much better, because they're just basically New Labour Lite now anyway.

    Part of the issue may be that, at least as far as I've seen, ordinary squaddies aren't too well regarded. The usual stuff about drinking too much, starting fights, etc. Maybe things are the same if you live in a military town in the States like Fayetteville, I don't know, we don't have too many of those in New England. But then, there was also that story in the papers recently about RAF men in Peterborough (not far from me) being told not to wear their uniforms out in public.
    I can remember in the 90's how the Canadian Forces were ordered by the Department of National Defense not to wear their uniforms off-duty or even in public while on-duty when possible. Unless troops are driving between bases (and wearing combat dress), the public practically never sees a uniformed soldier or officer in real life, even now.

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    Council Member ODB's Avatar
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    Default As it should be IMO

    I am a complete fan of not wearing uniforms in public. For a decade now I leave them at work. Ever see the post man walking around the mall after work in uniform? The UPS man? FEDEX? It is what I wear for work some days..... Nothing I hate more than seeing "Joe" in ACUs walking around the mall at 11 a.m. or even at 6 p.m. Then there are those who fly in them, understand returning from deployment, but many have regular clothes with them, you mean to tell me they didn't have 2 minutesto change in all the above cases. My final thought on this is considering today's enemy/threat I am amazed we (service members) have not been actively targeted here at home. This is a lot of my reasoning for my thoughts on this, the less I can make myself and my family a target the better. I even hate the fact I have to have a DOD decal on my vehicle to get on post. Just my .02 cents worth.
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    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    German soldiers are told that they can use the uniform whenever they want, but they need to behave properly and shall not mix uniform with visible civilian clothes ("Univil").

    I heard about this
    http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/0...h-to-outl.html
    on BFBS yesterday. This is probably a fail safe evidence for significant problems of that army.

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    Council Member MattC86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    German soldiers are told that they can use the uniform whenever they want, but they need to behave properly and shall not mix uniform with visible civilian clothes ("Univil").

    I heard about this
    http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/0...h-to-outl.html
    on BFBS yesterday. This is probably a fail safe evidence for significant problems of that army.
    I was recently at the Koblenz train station, and there were dozens of German soldiers, best as I could figure returning from reservist or conscript duty (do the Germans still have conscription?). . .they were in full uniform, but many had long hair, facial hair, piercings (not even just ears) and even coloured hair. I was waiting for a monocled Prussian in jackboots to come storming in and give them the whip, but it didn't happen.

    I know reservists (an all countries) tend to look less stringently military than their active duty comrades, but these guys were still on duty and were sporting personal appearances that didn't just occur for the morning train ride home to their lives. As someone who doesn't particularly like seeing the uniform off post, seeing the uniform (even German) represented so was quite a shock to me.

    Getting back to the issue at hand in the UK, I wonder if the difference in public perception is noticeable even in the new TV series "Warship" chronicling life on HMS Illustrious. Whereas in the US, this show would feature heavy metal music and a very serious Lt. Commander explaining the "awesome capabilities" of his warship, the UK series closely examines the Chinese Laundrymen (stunned they still have those) and the RN's football team as it competes with the RAF. More of a "lives of British sailors in the service" rather than a "We're the US Navy, and let me show you how we put the fear of God into people" kind of approach.

    I think the British people as a whole are very ambivalent about their military, much as they are ambivalent about their role in the world with the collapse of the Empire. People I've talked to (granted, these are most definitely not military professionals) scoff at the concept of a "long war," which even a considerable segment of the US population takes for granted.

    In short, the political disconnect with the UK and its military is, I believe, inseparable from the continued conflict within UK foreign policy about its position in the world order - still caught at the edge of Europe and the Transatlantic relationship. . . I'm not sure you can separate those issues.

    Regards,

    Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODB View Post
    I am a complete fan of not wearing uniforms in public. For a decade now I leave them at work. Ever see the post man walking around the mall after work in uniform? The UPS man? FEDEX? It is what I wear for work some days..... Nothing I hate more than seeing "Joe" in ACUs walking around the mall at 11 a.m. or even at 6 p.m. Then there are those who fly in them, understand returning from deployment, but many have regular clothes with them, you mean to tell me they didn't have 2 minutesto change in all the above cases. My final thought on this is considering today's enemy/threat I am amazed we (service members) have not been actively targeted here at home. This is a lot of my reasoning for my thoughts on this, the less I can make myself and my family a target the better. I even hate the fact I have to have a DOD decal on my vehicle to get on post. Just my .02 cents worth.
    You'd probably find it interesting that SMA Preston asked all the attendees at the Armor Conference to wear their uniforms when traveling TDY - he felt it was a great chance to get into conversations with civilians about the Army - good recruiting marketing.

    I don't buy the "target" argument domestically. Overseas it makes sense, but I think that's overblown fear-mongering.

    The one time I traveled in uniformed I was humbled and even embarassed at the amount of positive attention I received, including lots of questions from a curious public. I kind of see SMA Preston's point. Why not allow the uniform (as long as properly worn) off post?

    MattC, concur on the Bundeswehr's grooming standards. Goatees, colored hair, and earrings are standard for the conscripts, as far as I can tell. (Yes, they have conscription). I don't see the colored hair among the "regulars" though.

    (I'm secretly jealous of the Goatees).
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    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
    I was recently at the Koblenz train station, and there were dozens of German soldiers, best as I could figure returning from reservist or conscript duty (do the Germans still have conscription?). . .they were in full uniform, but many had long hair, facial hair, piercings (not even just ears) and even coloured hair. I was waiting for a monocled Prussian in jackboots to come storming in and give them the whip, but it didn't happen.

    I know reservists (an all countries) tend to look less stringently military than their active duty comrades, but these guys were still on duty and were sporting personal appearances that didn't just occur for the morning train ride home to their lives. As someone who doesn't particularly like seeing the uniform off post, seeing the uniform (even German) represented so was quite a shock to me.
    The regulations are not very explicit, they merely ask for a "gepflegte" appearance. That's difficult to translate. Basically it means that the soldier shall care about how he looks.
    colored hair - depends on Disziplinarvorgesetzter afaik (CO who's responsible for judging on minor offences, usually a captain)
    tattoo - should be hidden afaik
    facial hair - no problem if it's no 3-day-beard
    long hair - allowed since 70's (we had a court judging on this, afterwards long-haired soldiers had to use a net under the helmet iirc)
    I'm out of active duty since several years, though.
    monocle officer - a stereotype that was never really representative
    Our conscription is just nine months, but many extend it for some months with better pay.

    I wonder why the British have apparently such prestige/reputation troubles.
    That's certainly a terrible outlook for long-term recruiting especially of NCOs and officers! It might also affect the budget, which is defined in a democratic political process, after all.

    We in Germany have a rather good relationship, the Germans have concluded peace with their own military sometime in the 90's. The left wing isn't any more like in the 70's/80's, not the least because many conditions have changed.
    Our SecDefs were in the focus of critique (for really, really good reasons), not the troops themselves. We have about once per year a minor scandal like tasteless photos and about the KSK, that's it.

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    Default Wear it with pride

    A lot of Americans probably don't like to be reminded that a few of you heroes are indeed at war. But we are, even while they're at the proverbial mall. The good news, as CavGuy mentioned is that the response to a uniform in public is almost universally positive. (OK, stay away from the recruiting station in Berkeley).

    'Twasn't always so, as Tom mentioned. At times there were directives not to wear uniforms in public, but sometimes it was almost an element of survival. Who wanted the hassle of being spat at and verbally abused? It was easier and safer to travel in mufti.

    The turn came during the Reagan presidency, when POTUS supposedly asked why he never saw any uniforms when he was out and about -- memories of WWII and all that. When he learned of policies that discouraged, if not forbade wear in public, he issued guidance encouraging wear of Class As during travel. The Amy went to a policy of Fatigue/BDU auth directly between work and home.

    The current Army policy of wearing ACUs is good for all concerned, for soldiers as well for those whom we serve.

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    I was never a big fan of wearing the uniform outside of the duty day, simply because it is impractical (specifically, the beret is impractical). I'm sure this is familiar to everyone - try walking out the door of a crowded Starbucks with a coffee and a muffin in one hand, your beret in the other, squeezing your way out the door past the long line of people, and then donning your beret with one hand - or setting your coffee and muffin on the ground or floor - just so that you can walk 15 feet to your vehicle to unlock the door. Or a similar feat with two bags of items from the grocery store on your way home. I found it simpler to just leave my uniform at work and travel in shorts, a t-shirt, and flip flops.

    My 2 cents - if you do not meet height/weight standards, then I think that wearing the uniform outside of duty hours (aside from going directly to and from your home) should be forbidden. Those individuals are not meeting the standard and they should not walk around in public giving people the impression that they are meeting the standard. It sends an inaccurate message about the standards that we hold our Soldiers to and reflects poorly upon the military.

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    I've never understood the hostility of the U.S. armed forces to beards and longer hair. Like Tom says, that wasn't always the case with this, either.

    I just spent a few days last week touring the national military parks at Antietam and Gettysburg. It was very interesting. Lots of photos and illustrations there of troops in the field (both dead and alive). Anyone who goes to pieces at the sight of soldiers with a goatee better avoid these two places, that's for sure.

    Apparently soldiers sporting a beard and longer hair didn't seem to pose a problem for anyone in the Confederate and Union armies, from the lowly private all the way up to general officers. Maybe the Bundeswehr has simply adopted a similar attitude.
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    Always worth remembering that the vast majority of troops on both sides in the Civil War were state volunteer units, not regulars.

    That said, mustaches used to be quite the thing (especially with cavalry units). Beards were common in the field, but not so much in garrison. As for reasons...try pest control for one. Back in the day lice were a major problem, and keeping hair short (to include facial hair) was one of the main control options available. I suspect that over time it just became a "symbol of good order."
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
    Getting back to the issue at hand in the UK, I wonder if the difference in public perception is noticeable even in the new TV series "Warship" chronicling life on HMS Illustrious. Whereas in the US, this show would feature heavy metal music and a very serious Lt. Commander explaining the "awesome capabilities" of his warship, the UK series closely examines the Chinese Laundrymen (stunned they still have those) and the RN's football team as it competes with the RAF. More of a "lives of British sailors in the service" rather than a "We're the US Navy, and let me show you how we put the fear of God into people" kind of approach.
    I don't know if you've been following this from overseas, but that's just like the PBS miniseries "Carrier" last month.
    Last edited by Jedburgh; 05-28-2008 at 07:41 PM. Reason: Added link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I've never understood the hostility of the U.S. armed forces to beards and longer hair. Like Tom says, that wasn't always the case with this, either.
    Until the early 1990's, IIRC, Navy personnel could grow beards and such while aboard ship, but I think that went away in part because of difficulties with gas-masks.

    If it were up to me, I would discourage ACU/utility uniforms in public, and actively encourage Class A's/B's. My impression of the Army is they seem to have rid themselves of everything but ACU's and I see them worn way too often, including official functions. The Army has some great uniforms and IMO would be better served by wearing A's and B's instead of ACU's in public.

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    Rumor control from SMA's Preston's brief I sat in is that current A's/B's begin going away on 14 June and are replaced by a mod of the current dress blue uniform. It's been rumored/staffed for quite awhile but will reportedly be announced then.

    No more greens! Of course, there will be a 2-3 year "wear out".
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    Default nothing better

    It is great to see that the Army is not currently gainfully employed and has enough free time to change the uniform... again. The Dress Blues look sharp and have more impact bc you only wear them on special occasions. If they add patches and flare, it will ruin the uniform.

    The SMA ran with the 82nd last week (nobody pointed out he is not airborne) when he was here on Bragg. I wonder if he checked any barracks? Clearly a new uniform deserved more attention than taking care of Soldiers or fighting a war these past couple years.

    Sir, I really hope this is a rumor/joke.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    Rumor control from SMA's Preston's brief I sat in is that current A's/B's begin going away on 14 June and are replaced by a mod of the current dress blue uniform. It's been rumored/staffed for quite awhile but will reportedly be announced then.

    No more greens! Of course, there will be a 2-3 year "wear out".

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    Default Been a soldier both AC and RC and

    a DA and DOD civilian. I well remember when Class A and B were the only authorized uniforms off post and for office wear. I also recall when the army started wearing BDUs in the office and the classroom in the early 90s (perhaps the late 80s). But there were the DACs always in coat and tie. It seemed to me (and still seems the same) that if soldiers wear ACUs to the office the DACs should wear blue jeans, tee shirts, and sneakers - same-o same-o.

    Regarding beards: the old saw about can't get a seal on the protective mask is just that. I mentioned that reason in 1970 to a distant cousin who skippered a nuclear attack sub. He replied that his crew had been the test population and they got seals just fine - thank you very much!

    Cheers

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    When I was in the 82nd 72-75 you could not where fatigues (thats what they were called back then) off post except inside your POV to and from work. Two exceptions were flat tire,break down etc., the other was to get gas. The gas exception was added after the first Arab Oil embargo, reason being for a while the whole state of North Carolina was on rationing. Odd number license plates could get gas one day, even numbers the next. So if you were getting gas you were allowed to pump it,pay for and get back in your car. The reason for this was that self serve gas stations were just starting to get going compared to full service ones, so higher HQ thought it was ok for the troops to save some money by being in fatigues for a few minutes. This may seem strange to the younger folks but this was a very big deal back then. Oh yea if got caught violating this you were subject to an Article 15 Never heard of it happening though.

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    Default OK I give up

    Soldiers in public should look like civilians or pretty girls in their spiffy As or Bs.

    To John T -- I used to love the fact that in the 5-sided nuthouse, we could wear the open collar B when those low life civilians and contractors had to strangle themselves with ties. Even in the winter, we could wear a sweater w/ opened neck shirt. Of course, we all had dress up clothes in case we were called upon to perform in some sort of command function. Not only that, when Max Thurman was the Vice, you had to wear the saucer cap whenever you travelled with him, not the c--t (garrison) cap.

    As to beards, long hair, etc., it doesn't matter what the standard is, just that it is enforced. If the standard is 5" hair, better not be 6. If the sideburns can extend to the tragus (look it up), then they better not be longer. If moustaches can't extend below the lower lip, so be it. After the shirts vs skins ball game for PT, everybody gets back in uniform for the run back to the company area. Just set a standard and then enforce it. In this world, discipline rules.

    Of course, a whole bunch of you better be enjoying the popularity of shaved heads.

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    Default Roger that

    Old Eagle. Reminds me that the last time I looked at the haircut reg (long ago and far away) it prohibited "extreme" styles!o

    Cheers

    JohnT

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    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patmc View Post
    It is great to see that the Army is not currently gainfully employed and has enough free time to change the uniform... again. The Dress Blues look sharp and have more impact bc you only wear them on special occasions. If they add patches and flare, it will ruin the uniform.
    I don't think they're adding much flair. There was a survey sent out via AKO awhile ago seeking opinions about how to replicate the SSI and FWTS patches on the uniforms. I think they're going for pin on crests.

    The SMA ran with the 82nd last week (nobody pointed out he is not airborne) when he was here on Bragg. I wonder if he checked any barracks? Clearly a new uniform deserved more attention than taking care of Soldiers or fighting a war these past couple years.
    I assume you're being sly here. Just because he wasn't offered the opportunity as a 19K to throw himself out of an airplane 5 times makes him ineligible as SMA to run with the 82d? If he's not air assault, can he not run with the 101st?

    I always base my opinions on people by the tabs they wear and not by who they are. He wasn't selected as SMA for being an idiot.

    Sir, I really hope this is a rumor/joke.
    I doubt it, this move started under Shoomaker. The general argument is that in the long run it will be cheaper for the soldiers. Only two uniforms to maintain (ACU and Dress), unless you opt for mess dress (chicks dig it).

    I personally hate green A's/B's. Blues will be much better as long as they don't kill it with flair, as you said.

    The pant will change from a suspender to a belted version. A grey shirt will be fielded which will be the "Class B" shirt for the uniform.

    Also this from Marlow White's website:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow White Sez
    Dress Blue Uniform Change Update (6 Mar 08): GEN Casey has commented recently that an announcement concerning the Dress Blue Uniform Change is likely to occur early this summer. Our guess is that such an announcement would be on June 14 (Army's Birthday) as previous major uniform changes have been announced on that date. Currently, the "Class A" version of the Dress Blue is not implemented and the Class A Green Uniform is still in effect. Marlow White is NOT a member of the Army Uniform Board; however, the industry's expectations are that the Army's Dress uniform will become a variation of the current Dress Blue Uniform.
    Also This from the Army's own news release (dated):

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Man Sez:
    WASHINGTON (Army News Service - June 6, 2006) -- Army service uniforms will be streamlined to one blue Army Service Uniform, the Army announced today.

    “World-class Soldiers deserve a simplified, quality uniform. The blue Army Service Uniform is a traditional uniform that is consistent with the Army’s most honored traditions,” said Sgt. Maj. Of the Army Kenneth O. Preston.

    “We have all of these variations of uniforms – green, blue and white,” said Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker. “It makes sense for us to go to one traditional uniform that is really sharp and high quality and which Soldiers will be very proud to wear. And that’s what we’ve done by adopting this blue Army Service Uniform that reflects simplicity, quality, utility and tradition.”

    Many Soldiers already own an Army blue uniform (now to be called the Army Service Uniform) and may continue to wear it. Improvements will be made to the fabric and fit. Reduction of the number of uniforms will reduce the burden on Soldiers for purchases and alteration cost.

    Introduction in the Army Military Clothing Sales Stores should begin in fourth quarter of fiscal year 2007. Introduction in the Clothing Bag should begin first quarter 2009. The Mandatory Possession Date is expected to be fourth quarter fiscal year 2011.

    A wear-out date for the Army Green Class A and White dress uniforms will be determined at a later date.

    The consolidation of Army service uniforms is part of a streamlining process. In 2004, the Army reduced the number of battle dress uniforms from three to one when it adopted the Army Combat Uniform in place of the Woodland Green Battle Dress Uniform (winter and summer versions) and the Desert Combat Uniform. That uniform consolidation has been a resounding success in terms of Soldier acceptance and reducing the variety of combat uniforms with which they must deal.
    Last edited by Cavguy; 05-29-2008 at 04:30 AM.
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