Wear of the Uniform/Appearance Off-Installation

[Uboat509]

The SMA ran with the 82nd last week (nobody pointed out he is not airborne) when he was here on Bragg.

So he wasn't infantry, so what? We can't all be rock stars. SOMEBODY has to cook the food, fix the trucks, drive the tanks, etc. I, for one, don't see any reason why one of the infantry support MOSs can't be SMA.

SFC W

[patmc]

I'm not infantry. Most guys at Bragg are not infantry, but most are airborne. I love the support guys; they work harder than most of the combat arms. No complaints there.

The Fayetteville Observer (all the news that's fit to print) and the Paraglide (Bragg's paper) were plastered with photos of the Division Run. Everyone at work pointed out SMA was wearing an Airborne shirt. Was my comment stupid? Of course it was, but this is Fort Bragg. And definately no offense to any 19 series guys. They protected my ass when I needed it.

Regardless, I still think there are more pressing issues at hand than changing the dress uniform. Fix housing, training, dwell time, medical care, etc. then worry about a uniform you wear once a month.

So he wasn't infantry, so what? We can't all be rock stars. SOMEBODY has to cook the food, fix the trucks, drive the tanks, etc. I, for one, don't see any reason why one of the infantry support MOSs can't be SMA.

SFC W

[RTK]

I'm not infantry. Most guys at Bragg are not infantry, but most are airborne. I love the support guys; they work harder than most of the combat arms. No complaints there.

The Fayetteville Observer (all the news that's fit to print) and the Paraglide (Bragg's paper) were plastered with photos of the Division Run. Everyone at work pointed out SMA was wearing an Airborne shirt. Was my comment stupid? Of course it was, but this is Fort Bragg. And definately no offense to any 19 series guys. They protected my ass when I needed it.

I've never had anyone, to include those with long or short tabs, deny themselves an opportunity to one of my Bradleys or Abrams. Maybe it was because I'm airborne qualified....

Who gives two S*&ts if SMA Preston was wearing an Airborne shirt or not? I guarentee SMA Preston did not go to the main PX at Bragg after he got of the C-12 and bought the shirt himself. Did he earn the parachutist badge? No. Did he earn the right to wear a shirt gifted to him by the post commander and run with his Soldiers? Yes - because he's the Sergeant Major of the Army.

The armor community didn't bitch when SMA Hall came and shot off a tank at Knox, even though he didn't go through TCGST. So I ask the larger question; who has more time - the powers that be for changing the uniform or the dirt darts arguing in the company supply and admin area over whether or not the SMA can run with their unit, even though he's not "qualified?"

By the way, 3 of the last 4 Sergeants Major of the Armor have been either Scouts or Tankers.

[TheCurmudgeon]

The pant will change from a suspender to a belted version. A grey shirt will be fielded which will be the "Class B" shirt for the uniform.

:

Last I heard the grey shirt was out. No patches. A combat unit affiliation pin could be worn on the left side above the unit awards.

Also rumor control had it that the new "B" uniform would be the ACUs with colored rather than subdued patches, so there may be no need to alter the pants.

[120mm]

I HATE Class "As" First and foremost, they are designed for fat people.

Kind of like a Maternity Mini-skirt for men....

In my 26 year career, 6 of which were active, I think I've worn my Class "As" 8 or 9 times. My Mess Dress, though, I'm busily attempting to wear out.

We need ONE dress uniform and ONE basic field uniform, and both need to be adaptible to different situations, imo.

And on the subject of Class B's, Nearly every single time me or one of my guys were truly screwed over by someone, it's usually someone who wore Class B uniform. I say those people could wear something Day-Glo pink with a big "Blue Falcon" stenciled front and back....

[Schmedlap]

I'm glad that the emphasis upon starch and shoe polish disappeared with the change from BDU/DCU to ACU. I hated the rationale that your DUTY/FIELD uniform does not look professional unless it is starched, and your boots are not presentable if you cannot use them to signal an aircraft. Where did that come from? How about neat, clean, and serviceable uniforms and clean, blackened, neat, serviceable boots? Why was that unacceptable? It was a waste of time and money to get uniforms starched and to spit shine boots when just buffing them with a brush was adequate (and met the standards in 670-1). Switching to ACU's almost makes up for the black beret boner (aka, the chef hat, given how many seem to improperly sport it).

Likewise the decision to go to one uniform also makes sense. Given how rarely most Soldiers actually wear the class A and B, replacing them with one makes more sense from both a financal standpoint and one of simplicity in the busy lives of Soldiers and their families.

Next on my wish list: stop wearing helmets and various other field gear at parades. What is that all about? It is not a uniform item (it is equipment), it does not look impressive, and it does not reflect what we wear in battle - so what is the point? When I PCS'd to the DC area, I went to CIF and was issued a old-school kevlar helmet and LCE (in late 2006). Why? In case I needed to participate in a parade or ceremony. I got a separate ACH, Interceptor, and MOLLE gear for more practical purposes. That was so stupid. And did anyone see photos of President Bush pinning the Distinguished Service Cross on two 82nd ABN Soldiers last week? Did you see the officer (could not see his rank) who was also in the photo? He was wearing a stripped down Interceptor (with no SAPI's) and a red beret. What is that all about? Is that supposed to look super disciplined or professional?

[Tacitus]

I hated the rationale that your DUTY/FIELD uniform does not look professional unless it is starched, and your boots are not presentable if you cannot use them to signal an aircraft. Where did that come from?

I vividly remember standing in formation to hear a battalion commander rail about how he didn't want to see any starched BDUs, that that was in fact, against regulations, and he was going to make life hell for anybody he saw with them on. Then having NCOs make life difficult for us soldiers if our BDUs didn't look like they were starched. What to do?

It was then, at that moment, that I realized that Catch-22 wasn't merely a good novel and work of fiction, but something accurate that I would just have to learn to live with in the military.

That BC had to have seen soldiers walking around all the time with starched BDUs afterwards, but I never heard of anybody getting in trouble for it. The feeling in the ranks was that if (the mysterious "They") had it in for you, this was a sort of selective enforcement of regulations they would get you for, if they wanted to.

[wm]

I vividly remember standing in formation to hear a battalion commander rail about how he didn't want to see any starched BDUs, that that was in fact, against regulations, and he was going to make life hell for anybody he saw with them on. Then having NCOs make life difficult for us soldiers if our BDUs didn't look like they were starched. What to do?

It was then, at that moment, that I realized that Catch-22 wasn't merely a good novel and work of fiction, but something accurate that I would just have to learn to live with in the military.

That BC had to have seen soldiers walking around all the time with starched BDUs afterwards, but I never heard of anybody getting in trouble for it. The feeling in the ranks was that if (the mysterious "They") had it in for you, this was a sort of selective enforcement of regulations they would get you for, if they wanted to.

Pre-BDUs we had "permanent press" (better know as permanent wrinkle) fatigues that I remember being told to get starched. And, of course, before those bad boys, we had the real starched cotton fatigues that you could stand up in the corner if you had a good QM laundry or a mama san laundry lady who knew what heavy starch meant.

For a real golden oldie, who, besides Ken, remembers, the Louisville cap (AKA the Fidel Castro Cap)? Some hot shot put a cardboard circle in a standard issue fatigue baseball cap and created it. As far as I can recall, it was never an Army clothing bag item, but it was required for wear.

[Tom Odom]

Pre-BDUs we had "permanent press" (better know as permanent wrinkle) fatigues that I remember being told to get starched. And, of course, before those bad boys, we had the real starched cotton fatigues that you could stand up in the corner if you had a good QM laundry or a mama san laundry lady who knew what heavy starch meant.

For a real golden oldie, who, besides Ken, remembers, the Louisville cap (AKA the Fidel Castro Cap)? Some hot shot put a cardboard circle in a standard issue fatigue baseball cap and created it. As far as I can recall, it was never an Army clothing bag item, but it was required for wear.

Yep and many "broke starch" twice a day.

I believe the cap was called the Ridgeway

[Ken White]

...For a real golden oldie, who, besides Ken, remembers, the Louisville cap (AKA the Fidel Castro Cap)? Some hot shot put a cardboard circle in a standard issue fatigue baseball cap and created it. As far as I can recall, it was never an Army clothing bag item, but it was required for wear.

that were of US origin instead of being adopted from someone else. The cardboard added to the old Field Cap (aka a patrol cap...) by some troublemaker led to the Lousiville Cap Company developing their semi-permanent stiff model.

Both it and the Campaign hat were sort of impractical.

Hmmm. Maybe there's a message in that somewhere...

[Tacitus]

A quick Google search yielded no results for The Louisville cap. What y'all are describing sounds something like French gendarmes or the French Foreign Legion wear (kepi blanc). If anybody has a picture of this almost forgotten hat, feel free to post it, or a link.

[Tom Odom]

A quick Google search yielded no results for The Louisville cap. What y'all are describing sounds something like French gendarmes or the French Foreign Legion wear (kepi blanc). If anybody has a picture of this almost forgotten hat, feel free to post it, or a link.

Ridgeway Cap

Yep looks like a kepi



I wore one at Texas A&M in the Ross Volunteers for drill practice

And wore a campaign hat with cover for rain gear

[Ken White]

here's one on a US Army soldat (LINK) back in the day, apparently in Korea in the late 50s...

[Stan]

here's one on a US Army soldat (LINK) back in the day, apparently in Korea in the late 50s...

Holy Moses... That picture of Tom almost scared me
Jeez he's put on a few Keys since that BCT photo in By-God-Texas A&M

[Ken White]

Loons...

[wm]

Yep and many "broke starch" twice a day.

While stationed on Okinawa, I sometimes "broke starch" (AKA "raped" a set of fatigues) three times a day. High humidity played havoc on the starch, and our SGM was a stickler for looking good when we had to be around the HQ builldings at Fort Buckner. We often broke starch with khakis a couple of times a day too--as a young trooper, I couldn't afford to buy a set of tropical worsted (TWs) with sewn-in military creases, even at Oriental tailoring prices.

Please don't moan about having to maintain modern fibered ACUs and a class A and B uniform with the only difference being the shirt (short sleeve versus long sleeve w/tie under a Blouse). it doesn't really sit well with a guy who had to maintain 4 completely different types of uniforms--fatigues, khakis/TWs, greens, and blues (I managed to avoid an assignment where I needed to get whites), not to mention the OGs and other field uniforms that came in the old TA-50 issue.

[ODB]

Unfortunately my main reasoning for the feelings of not wearing the uniform off-post is that most who do this are not presenting a good image. Too many who do this look as if they haven't pushed themselves away from the table in years or are "too cool". Generally these are the ones who love the APFT uniform the most. I understand given the public a chance to meet and talk with soldiers. Having experienced these conversation many times on flights all over the country, some the stories that come forth from these encounters, I have to ask are they productive or counter productive? I guess this comes down to one of those personal thoughts and preferences and their is no right or wrong answer, other than what is in the regulations at the time.

As far as airborne wings, who cares. I never have and never will wear my badges on BDUs/ACUs or whatever comes next. What a person wears on his chest or shoulder does not make the man/woman. It shows they can pass an Army school. There are too many out there who judge a soldier by this and it tells you absolutely nothing about them. it's no different than judging a book by it's cover. Funny this came up, I had a brother of mine call this morning asking me what he should wear when he reports to his Reserve unit. I told stripped down ACUs, let his new unit members judge him by his performance not his badges.

[120mm]

While stationed on Okinawa, I sometimes "broke starch" (AKA "raped" a set of fatigues) three times a day. High humidity played havoc on the starch, and our SGM was a stickler for looking good when we had to be around the HQ builldings at Fort Buckner. We often broke starch with khakis a couple of times a day too--as a young trooper, I couldn't afford to buy a set of tropical worsted (TWs) with sewn-in military creases, even at Oriental tailoring prices.

Please don't moan about having to maintain modern fibered ACUs and a class A and B uniform with the only difference being the shirt (short sleeve versus long sleeve w/tie under a Blouse). it doesn't really sit well with a guy who had to maintain 4 completely different types of uniforms--fatigues, khakis/TWs, greens, and blues (I managed to avoid an assignment where I needed to get whites), not to mention the OGs and other field uniforms that came in the old TA-50 issue.

Hey, we can't fix "stupid".

I transitioned from OG 507s to BDUs to ACUs, and like ACUS the best because you don't have to do anything to them. Except repair them all the time....

[Vic Bout]

I think I got it figured out. All those hours I spent as a young joe in 1/75 spit-shining my jungle boots and hand starching my cammies (couldnt afford store bought with my LES showing $350 a month AND that's with $50 a month jump pay!) wasn't so we'd look sharp. It was intended to keep us youngsters out of trouble....(we dint have video games or the internet to keep us occupied)...spent many an hour in the day room rubbing a cotton ball over my JB's, drinking 25 cent vending machine beer and watching Charlies Angels

[Norfolk]

I'm with those who propose just two sets of uniforms, a formal dress uniform for office and formal occasions, and a battle dress for work, in and out of the field. The Canadians have also gone through a number of just plain wasteful uniform issues and changes. First was in 1968, whent he Army, Navy, and Air Force were officially abolished by act of Parliament, and replaced by a single service, the Canadian Armed Forces. Everyone got a Rifle Green dress uniform, and most had a combat dress uniform, but not all; the Canadian Army actually refused to issue a real battle dress uniform until well into the 1960's, the issue WWII-battle dress being used mostly for work out of the field as well as formal occasions, while troops bought US-surplus to wear in the field.

Then the 60's came along and Canadian troops finally got an issue combat uniform (made partly out of nylon, caught fire and melted real well, and you stank real quick in the field) - but never enough were procured, and as recently as the '90s some recruits were issued black mechanic's coveralls instead. Strange but true. So somebody in the late '80s got the idea of "economizing" on combat uniforms by issuing "Garrison Dress", complete with tan "work" pants and shirt, brass, faux-Corcoran jump boots, camouflage duck-hunt smock, and black leather gloves, also a faux-London Fog black overcoat. Well, by the mid-90's that exercise in waste and futility bought the biscuit, and troops were still short of combat uniforms. At least in the 80's "Distinctive Environmental Uniforms" DEU's with "Army" greens and tans, Navy blues and whites, and Air Force light blues replaced the single Rifle Greens, still cheap, but at least it was helf a step forward.

The old No.2 Blue's that some other Commonwealth Armies still have are very easy on the eyes, and would go rather nicely with proper battle dress uniforms - I always liked the Brit DPMs (not the cheap Canadian knock-offs that were only issued to SSF units (especially 1RCR and the Airborne Regiment), and only for showing off all the badges and tabs that one had earned).

I think that having troops wear their dress uniforms in public might help remind the civilianry that yes, the Military still exists, and yes, it is still in their midst. That said, as other posters have stated, putting gaggles (or even odd individuals) of frumpy, out-of-shape, and not-so-well-disciplined troops out in public is just looking for trouble. That, however, is a leadership, training, and personnel issue, and if those three factors are taken care of properly, then the citizenry will be treated to the occasional sight of professional-looking troops appearing now and then in public. An alternative to this is to have the public rely on TV ads and shows, movies, and popular media in general to maintain the relationship between the Military and Society.