Saving their Souls in Fallujah?

[Cavguy]

Good comments by all.

I actually am surprised it took this long for an incident like this to happen, given the strength of the evangelical movement inside the military. I'll never forget walking patrol in Tal Afar past a poor Iraqi kid in a 'Jesus Loves Me' t-shirt that obviously had been given out by a prior unit. No one had an objection, but I'm not sure anyone in that particular dirt poor area could read English.

[120mm]

Good comments by all.

I actually am surprised it took this long for an incident like this to happen, given the strength of the evangelical movement inside the military. I'll never forget walking patrol in Tal Afar past a poor Iraqi kid in a 'Jesus Loves Me' t-shirt that obviously had been given out by a prior unit. No one had an objection, but I'm not sure anyone in that particular dirt poor area could read English.

My own experience was kind of the inverse of this. When we encountered Iraqi vendors in the opening days of OIF I, they were well-stocked with "Christian" paraphenalia and were vainly trying to sell it to us. Icons, crosses, coffee cups, t-shirts, decorated bibles, you name it, they were trying to push it on us...

Unfortunately for them, I think their marketing was based on an incorrect assumption of that same "evangelical movement inside the military". (We WERE "Christian Invaders" after all) Much is made about this supposed "movement", but in reality, I think it has more to do with American society's radical move to atheism, while the military isn't moving that direction quite as fast.

My experience, as a Christian in the US Army, is that the vast majority of soldiers are much more interested in getting laid, getting drunk, getting high (without getting caught, of course) and avoiding work (extra points are awarded if you work harder to avoid the work, than just doing the work itself, of course....) more than proselytizing....

But I'm interested in how many of the higher ranks become "neo-Christians" once they take command/get in que for a choice, promotable job....

[Tacitus]

... I think it has more to do with American society's radical move to atheism, while the military isn't moving that direction quite as fast.

America's radical move to Atheism? I've traveled fairly widely across the country the last few years and can't recall anyplace without a healthy number of places of worship: church, cathedral, storefront, mosque, synagogue, commune, Buddhist temple, you name it. I also read about Wiccan, Druid, and assorted New Age meeting places. That polygamous Mormon compound in Texas currently in the news just serves to show you that there is SOME theistic association, no matter what floats your boat.

Theism, of whatever form and denomination, seems firmly rooted in the USA. This is probably because of our lack of a state sponsored religion, which has proven quite detrimental for theism in other places.

I have co-workers and inlaws who throw out the term "atheism" as a shorthand word for any group which is NOT characterized by a Protestant Christian, fundamentalist, Evangelical, premillenial dispensationalism approach to God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premillennialism
But this is mainly because they believe that if you don't bring this kind of theistic approach, you are doomed to roast in eternal hellfire. Obviously this would include atheists. But a fiery eternity also awaits other theists, who just don't have the right theological answers.

[120mm]

America's radical move to Atheism? I've traveled fairly widely across the country the last few years and can't recall anyplace without a healthy number of places of worship: church, cathedral, storefront, mosque, synagogue, commune, Buddhist temple, you name it. I also read about Wiccan, Druid, and assorted New Age meeting places. That polygamous Mormon compound in Texas currently in the news just serves to show you that there is SOME theistic association, no matter what floats your boat.

Theism, of whatever form and denomination, seems firmly rooted in the USA. This is probably because of our lack of a state sponsored religion, which has proven quite detrimental for theism in other places.

I have co-workers and inlaws who throw out the term "atheism" as a shorthand word for any group which is NOT characterized by a Protestant Christian, fundamentalist, Evangelical, premillenial dispensationalism approach to God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premillennialism
But this is mainly because they believe that if you don't bring this kind of theistic approach, you are doomed to roast in eternal hellfire. Obviously this would include atheists. But a fiery eternity also awaits other theists, who just don't have the right theological answers.

I'm simply referring to the large amount of people who are not associated, or do not submit to the discipline of their "religion". I tend to include those who belong to "invented" religions, such as Wicca, etc... (Show me their "Wiccan" heritage, and I'll think otherwise....) I guess if pressed, I'd tend to include the Easter/Christmas Christians as being functionally atheist.

Combine this with the "American Taliban Is Consuming the Country" drivel that is being spouted by neo-atheists to rally their "base".

The US is demonstrably becoming less religious, and less conservative. Despite the "double-speak" one hears from the anti-religious bigots.... One only needs to watch a movie, surf the web, listen to contemporary music, or read books on the bestseller list to understand that simple fact.

While we do NOT need an "American Taliban" I think it is just as likely that "Taliban" will come from the Left as from the Right.

[marct]

Hi 120,

I'm simply referring to the large amount of people who are not associated, or do not submit to the discipline of their "religion".

Ah, okay, that makes a lot more sense . The term "atheist" is a tricky one, simply because it has been used as a pejorative by so many people to apply to any group that disagrees with them. Personally, I wouldn't use it to apply to people who don't "submit to the discipline of their "religion"", the technical term would be "heretic" assuming they did not meet the bare minimum disciplinary requirements. As a note, I'm not using "heretic" in the pejorative sense, I'm using it in the technical sense of one who exercise their free will to choose to do or not do something that is (or is not) mandated by their religion.

That first sense, however, of being "unassociated" is much more tricky and, I suspect, totally inaccurate in a number of cases. Their appears to be a presumption of association with an organized group, a "religion" in the sociological sense, but this is not necessarily a requirement for someone who is not an atheist. This is the "gray area" where we see the overlap of "spirituality" and "religion" with the first having to do with an individuals relationship with their god(s) and the second having to do with their relationship to other humans.

I tend to include those who belong to "invented" religions, such as Wicca, etc... (Show me their "Wiccan" heritage, and I'll think otherwise....) I guess if pressed, I'd tend to include the Easter/Christmas Christians as being functionally atheist.

Got time for a couple of pints, Drew ? If you want the Wiccan linkages, read Ecstacies and The Night Battles both by Carlo Ginzburg. The specific linkage runs from the Benandanti, to Aradia and then to Gardnerian Wicca (there are also other lines as well, but none of them are well known). I also ran across groups during my MA fieldwork that I could track back over 500 years in continuous operation. To be totally fair, however, the groups that actually can be traced back are in a definite minority; probably less that 1% of the current Wiccan population.

Combine this with the "American Taliban Is Consuming the Country" drivel that is being spouted by neo-atheists to rally their "base".

Yeah, I've heard that drek as well. I tend to view it as just another example of "religion" in the secular, non-theistic sense; "atheistic" in the sense that they don't personalize their "deities", but definitely "theistic" in the sense that they make a "god" out of political correctness.

The US is demonstrably becoming less religious, and less conservative. Despite the "double-speak" one hears from the anti-religious bigots.... One only needs to watch a movie, surf the web, listen to contemporary music, or read books on the bestseller list to understand that simple fact.

If I were speaking as a scholar, I woud say that the US is becoming ore "religious", in the sense of being tied into group associations with transcendent symbol systems (not all of which are "religious" or "theistic"), and much less "spiritual". Your examples highlight, to me at least, the decreasing role of personal spirituality and its replacement with group-based "morality". Indeed, one of the common threads I have been following for some time is an increasing attack, usually by denigration, by many groups on individual spirituality, either inside a religious organization or outside of it. To me, this smacks of group-think hubris. W.B. Yeats said it better than me:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.