Sarajevo's point, however, was that the film depicted "our own [US] radical Christian analog to Al Queda," not that it was representative of US mainstream culture.
(Of course, despite some of the statements on the film, the camp's graduates don't typically engage in mass-casualty attacks on civilians.)
THANK YOU !Originally Posted by Rex Brynen
Finally someone will read and understand words without having his bias implying something that was NOT said.
Good point.
What scares me about people who can be manipulated so easily is that I'm not sure how much it would take to get them to do something. I'm not saying they are going to pick up crowbars and start killing Muslims off the bat, but little stuff. Even being manipulated to look the other way scares me. When looking at the videos out of some mega churches, what worries a lot of people overseas (and here) is not that people are radical right now, but rather how easily manipulated they are or appear to be. They wonder what would happen if tomorrow or twenty years from now their minister starts preaching that they go out and smash the windows (or kill) of a ________ (Circle one: Muslim, Hindu, etc.) What I think is feeding these perceptions in the ME is that they look at us and they see themselves.
Although I believe this is very untrue for a very large majority of the population, I worry about those few who are that malleable. All it takes is a few radicals and enough people who are indifferent too or afraid and so remain neutral.
It's not just in the religious right that many people see it, I see the same thing happening in the far left. It's just another form of fundamentalism.
I have to state that in no way do I think we are anywhere near this now, but in a generation or two I worry about it. Again, nothing on the level of Al Qaeda, but I start to worry. (I am stating that I am in no way saying US mainstream culture is like this, but after watching some of they guys on tv in the middle of the night I can understand how one might think that.)
Adam L
Last edited by Adam L; 06-01-2008 at 02:09 PM.
As long those people have U.S. Military to do fighting and killing for them there is no need for any Christian militia to start doing that on they own... If one have state apparatus and power behind him, there is no need to have revenge groups like that. Saying that, you are completely right pointing on those groups who are crawling on late night tv and calling for Armagedon.
My opinion is, they are looking for official U.S. policy to support them and stand behind them (something like Jewish state behind zionist policy) with they military and financial support. Something maybe McCain can do since he openly welcomed John Hagee support... Not to say that Obama or Clinton are against supporting zionist or neocon policy without any question. They are ready stated such in they recent speeches.
I think, we all have many reasons to be afraid all of that.
Hi Sarajevo,
That's a very good point, especially since it deals with one possible interpretation of what is happening. I can certainly see how such a view could easily be spun in a media campaign, regardless of any truth to it. Personally, I have suspicions regarding the initial motivations of the neo-cons for going into Iraq; suspicions that really haven't been set at ease by some of the recent "I wasn't MY fault" books (not the Feith comes to mind, but...).
At the same time, I really think that the vast majority of the US population thinks that these Christian "militias" (and I really don't like that term because it implies discipline and a willingness to suffer) are a bunch of twits. On a personal level, I've had run ins with two of them and, IMO, their "leaders" are power hungry materialists while many of their followers are deluded fools. As such, I suspect they are a god analog for fanatical splinter groups everywhere; they just haven't had to put their lives or material comfort on the line, and I doubt that the majority of them will.
At the same time, there are a (larger) number of Christian sects that I have run across who truly practice what they preach but do not support or condone violence (as a note, I've also run a cross a number of Muslims who are exact analogs of them). People who have a strong, personal relationship with their god(s) tend not to be threatened by others who believe differently.
Marc
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
Hi, Marc
You will need to forgive me but word "interpretation" can very easily be apply to anyone else's look on what and why is all this happening right now. Real truth is in actions (individuals or countries) and reasons why they do such a things...
But, with everything else I will easily agree with you. I agree with you regards the US population and some (true) believers. Problem today is that there are many wrongs which stopping those groups and/or individuals to step out more. In their minds dilemma is bothering them:
If we are same, like some lip service we heard, how come that brute of fighting and killings, sanctions and bombing are only in they cities and homes? And, why when they go on democratic elections they are not accepted just because "others" don't like them, even that majority of people vote freely?
So, I guess, my point would be that there are many different reasons why would one look at certain action and perceive it this or that way. After years of occupation and killings by the foreign troops, how would any of us look at they actions (those of occupation forces) and what would our reaction be?!
I was referring to having them go out and commit violence here in the US. This has nothing to do with revenge. There doesn't really even have to be logic behind it at all. My point was that people are becoming more and more easily manipulated and controlled. People are getting more and more desperate to be, and reamain, "happy." "Happiness", is like a drug. It is very complex, but it is something most people will do almost anything to avoid losing. We like to act otherwise, but people will ignore and/or do some pretty horrible things to maintain that state.
Sareajevo71, there are two recruiting methods here in the US for radicals. The first is the classic kind where a group goes out and finds someone down on their luck and gives them stuff and then tries to convert them to their cause. Ironically, they try to convert people using the methods a lot of religions have and do utilize. The second is pretty much the same except people aren't really down on their luck. It is very easy to convert (to a cause) board, disinterested and unsatisfied people. A lot of people just can't deal with the meaninglessness and dull character of everyday life. Look at how many people are on Prozac. It's not that everyone is clinically depressed. The more radical ideologies, whether religious or secular, often give a great sense of meaning and purpose.
Adam L
I really disagree with this. More what is happening is that they will vote for anyone who will take a hard line stance at creating what they believe the bible is telling them to do about the ME. I'm starting to wonder if the reason some of the far far out guys want people to support Obama and Clinton, is because they want more conflict. I don't think this is unreasonable thing to say. After Pat Robertson went after Ariel Sharon, saying his stroke was G-d punishing him if I remember correctly, for pulling settlers out of the territories and having talks.
Adam L
Last edited by Adam L; 06-02-2008 at 06:43 AM.
I should make it clear that I am no way saying that I feel that this trend I am mentioning is in anyway specific to Christians. I see this search for "happiness" going on across the board. Some people find Jesus (or other religious equivalents,) while others buy hybrids, find Chomsky or create a belief system out of anything including athiesm, agnostocism, (If Sagan were around he would put Dawkins and Hitchens in their place. He was a brilliant man who opened up the universe to millions around the globe. The universe sure is smaller without him.) environmentalism and perhaps one day football. (I believe this already exists. Its called NFL Sunday Ticket. Unfortunately those of us with cable can't join so it isn't allowed to be a religion under tax law. LOL!)
Adam L
I didn't talk about revenge either but since you mention, sure I can put that to into reasoning I see.
Your point about flocks of people is spot on! I saw that for many years and I saw product(s) of those things... And it was not pretty.
going back to the tread:
http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/cont.../10/9241.shtmlAfghanistan flooded by Christian missionaries
After the US and NATO invasion of Afghanistan, a wave of Christian missionaries poured to the country.
In support of Bush's words about the so-called "war on terrorism" - is in fact a war against Islam, missionaries and the occupation troops operate synchronously and fully coordinate their actions.
The purpose of the troops is destruction, physical violence, provoking poverty, hunger, devastation.
The purpose of missionaries is recruitment of poor and strangulated by massive violence, hunger and devastation Muslims to Christianity.
The Afghan puppet ulema (scholars) warned West-backed puppet president Hamid Karzai over growing Christian proselytizing by foreign aid groups in Afghanistan.
...
http://in.reuters.com/article/southA...31259720080105Afghan Clerics Warn Karzai Against Missionaries
Afghanistan’s Islamic council has told President Hamid Karzai to stop foreign aid groups from converting local people to Christianity and has demanded the reintroduction of public executions.
The council, an influential group that lacks binding authority, is made up of the Islamic clergy and ulema, or religious scholars, from various parts of Afghanistan. It made the warning in a statement Friday during a meeting with Mr. Karzai.
The ulema have always played a crucial role in Afghanistan and have been behind several revolts against past governments.
The council said it was concerned about the activities of some “missionary and atheistic” groups, saying that the actions were “against Islamic Shariah, the Constitution, and political stability,” according to a copy of the statement. “If not prevented, God forbid, catastrophe will emerge, which will not only destabilize the country, but the region and the world.”
...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May15.htmlChristian Missionaries Battle For Hearts and Minds in Iraq
...
When he arrived, however, Chang concluded his mission should be more humanitarian than religious. After speaking with Iraqis, he saw how closely people associated colonialism with missionaries, and he learned how angry some people were about comments Christian leaders in the United States had made about Islam and violence. Chang didn't want to appear to insult his new friends by aggressively proselytizing.
...
Carlos Cardoza-Orlandi, associate professor of world Christianity at the Columbia Theological Seminary in Atlanta, said some missionaries compound the tensions in Iraq because they enter with a sense of "victory and triumph."
"They come with here's an opportunity for Christianity to grow and because the U.S. is the occupier and the U.S. is a Christian country. That's pure ignorance," Orlandi said.
"The word 'missionary' carries with it a lot of baggage. It's tainted with notions of Western hegemony and the seeming need to establish political, economic and religious domination," said Jonathan Bonk, editor of the International Bulletin of Missionary Research, which publishes scholarly articles on the topic.
...
Zainab Badran, 36, a pharmacist, said one missionary gave him a Bible.
Although he has no intention of converting from Islam to Christianity, he read it out of curiosity and said it was nice to learn about other religions. He believes Christian aid workers should be more open about their aims.
"I can hear their thoughts and this won't harm me," he said. "I can accept them or refuse."
I don't doubt this; hell I've seen them. But I can say, catagorically, the Christian Ministries are not part of a larger Scheme of Maneuver. We can't even get tank parts to the right place at the right time. The fact that we could get Billy Bob and his Bible to the right place after heavy kinetics is amusing to me.
Example is better than precept.
At one point you referred to "revenge groups" not being necessary. Sorry if I read too much into that.
Adam L
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