Germany (catch all, incl. terrorism)

[Alsultani]

First of all...

RIP to the German soldier killed here via IED today.

I have nothing but respect and good things to say about the German troopers. They volunteer to come here.

The Bundeswehr is downsizing. You have to serve 35 years to get retirement. Political survival is a strong instinct in staff officers and commanders, especially when you've invested so much time.

[Markus]

From my desk thousands of kilometres from Afghanistan, my impression is that the Germans have been crippled by particularly strict Rules of Engagement. I think this is criminal. I have come to believe, mainly from the little I have read of the Germans' experience in Afghanistan, that limp-wristed ROE kill soldiers faster than a gung-ho mentality - not directly, as one might think, but through the crippling effect on morale. I am curious to know how the German soldiers over there feel about this.

As far as I know, this is the Germans' first excursion since WWII, so I don't think anyone should be too judgemental. But just as the Dutch seem to have used this opportunity to rebuild their mojo after the embarrassment of Bosnia, so too I think the Germans should have been given the opportunity to do the same. I feel that you have been let down by your politicians. However, from your post, Leopard, I gather that you have been building up your institutional confidence over there.

[davidbfpo]

Markus,

You stated:

As far as I know, this is the Germans' first excursion since WWII

No, they have been active of late and is well documented:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr Note this cites seventy deaths up to February 2011.

I particularly remember their role in Kosovo, due to one news clip with a very assertive Bundeswehr officer telling a Serbian officer he had to leave. they were also the first military to acknowledge that the Bosnia-Herzegovina commitment would last a long time and started to build proper barracks.

[Fuchs]

The previous missions weren't fighting missions despite some checkpoint shootout, though.

IIRC the Eastern Germans sent advisers to Angola and North Vietnam.
It's an almost completely unpublished chapter of German military history, and I have no details.

[Leopard 2A4]

Hello @all...

no, I am not in kunduz right now. I am in good old germany!

The Beer Story: I had to smile while reading it. it´s true that we germans are allowed to drink two beer a day. Therefor we get so called ration cards. And two beers are not much. I think it´s ok! But believe me, you can find ways to get much more beer a day. You give the guys in the suply-chain some bugs and you get as much beer as you want to. An can remenmber at least five nights when I was drunk during my last tour. And there were a lot of americans drinking with us. As they recognized that the germans have beer they came everey evening and asked for some bottles. And on a few nights we sat togehther an had a lot o fun in unfunny environment...

The HQ-Story: In germany now, after the fuel-truck-strike by Col. Klein nearly every Officer in the HQ is affraid of ordering high intensively fire. They are afraid of killing civilians and getting fired or judged. So the troops outside the camp are often not enough secured in the background. It´s bad.
The german army has the so called "orders-tactic". That means you get an order to achieve a goal. And you can decide what is to do to achieve it. So the leaders in the field often decide to attack the enemy, while the career-type of officer in the HQ whants them to withdrawl. Just to avoid colateral casualties.

In germany, tactical dicisions are made by lawyers and not by military men...

RIP to the Cpt. who was killed by an IED on Wednesday...

[davidbfpo]

Fuchs,

I've spent sometime with an ex-SADF soldier who fought in Angola and he has vivid memories of attacking a camp (SWAPO?) where their usual sweep tactic failed when hitting an entrenched, well defended position and lost several dead in minutes. After a full attack, with support (K-Cars), they found it was a platoon of East German paratroopers, who had been acting as "hands on" trainers and not one survived.

I have a vague recollection of a presence in Ethiopia during the Ogaden conflict and will check around one day.

[Alsultani]

I spent some time with a German senior NCO last night comparing war stories. He is been in Kosovo, Macedonia, Congo and now here. He is tuned in and street smart.

I am a grad of US Army Infantry school at Benning and spent 5 years in US Mechanized Infantry during my younger years.

I have participated in platoon level tactical patrols with the German infantry protection company here. I have been very impressed and am well satisified with their force posture and ability to react effectively to contact. I would go out with them anywhere.

[JMA]

The previous missions weren't fighting missions despite some checkpoint shootout, though.

IIRC the Eastern Germans sent advisers to Angola and North Vietnam.
It's an almost completely unpublished chapter of German military history, and I have no details.

Fuchs, found reference to this article in Der Spiegel circa 1980 - Honeckers Afrika-Korps



If there is no free download available from there you can get it here.

Seems to me that at that time there were 1,000 East Germans in Angola and 600 in Mozambique.

Perhaps you can give a short summary of the article as the translation I have seen is poor.

[Fuchs]

East Germany, 1980:

# 2700 German advisors and trainers in Africa (2 Arabian and 5 sub-Saharan countries)
# effective, disciplined in comparison to Cubans, direct training instead of leadership positions as Soviet trainers
# planned Ethiopian offensive against Eritrean rebels
# training army, air forces, domestic intelligence services
# some KIA
# also training Africans in East Germany, including police
# up to 200 million Mark annual military equipment exports, especially infantry equipment
# 60's: Focus on upcoming powers (rebels) who might recognise East Germany as a state when in power
# 70's more geostrategic (supposedly); countries with useful location and neighbourhood
# some payments of East German supplies in form of raw materials (the East Germans had difficulties to import world market goods because of their currency and because the Warsaw Pact/COMECON absorbed most exports)

Plus the usual childish who's-got-more-friends competition.


I looked a bit and found this statement of the German military history research agency;
http://www.mgfa-potsdam.de/html/eins...estorkmann.pdf
They stress that the East Germans had no combat missions, try to downplay the missions after confirming them.


West Germany did afaik also train non-allied foreigners in German language and in military skills before 1990 (100% in West Germany itself).