Germany (catch all, incl. terrorism)

[davidbfpo]

Bourbon,

Yes, it is. I'm still trying to recall another extremist group that have used the tactic 'Survival without publicity'.

Perhaps their motivation was purely internal within the group. It appears some of the communities affected were saying "It could be the Nazis you know", but this appears to have gained no traction or acceptance, either officially or from the media.

Given the antagonism towards some communities - not solely immigrants - in the political extremes across Europe, one wonders could there be similar violent crimes series where those responsible use 'Survival without publicity'.

[Bill Moore]

Turkish workers are not terrorized if they do not know that the victims were killed just for being Turkish workers. To borrow from my signature quote: “terrorism [is] almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries”.

Interesting points, since terrorism is normally viewed as violent political messaging, so are the crimes committed by this group terrorism or rather just murder? When the KKK was conducting similiar hate crimes in the U.S. they made quite a show out of it to spread terror, so in my view it was clearly terrorism. If a group of "true believers" get together to kill Jews, Turks, Drug runners, hookers, or whatever group they have a beef against and they don't advertise it, or execute the murders in a way to propagate a message of fear is it is terrorism or hate crime without terrorism being involved?

[Firn]

Interesting points, since terrorism is normally viewed as violent political messaging, so are the crimes committed by this group terrorism or rather just murder? When the KKK was conducting similiar hate crimes in the U.S. they made quite a show out of it to spread terror, so in my view it was clearly terrorism. If a group of "true believers" get together to kill Jews, Turks, Drug runners, hookers, or whatever group they have a beef against and they don't advertise it, or execute the murders in a way to propagate a message of fear is it is terrorism or hate crime without terrorism being involved?

Perhaps it was a bloody show for their right-wing comrades? Some sort of "(not so) lonely heroism" for the good of the brown fatherland? Some perverted Mutprobe (boyish "test of courage") to be circulated among the like-minded in childish comics starring the Pink Panther? The lack of publicity, the right-wing songs and the wider net of supporters as suspected before might indicate that.

[Fuchs]

Gang initiation ritual is not applicable.

The far right wing in Germany is a filter that only keeps back the dumbest people and a couple people who have mediocre intellect and seize on the opportunity to look smart in comparison and lead someone.

It's furthermore known that many people in far right wing groups are hired by domestic intelligence for reporting.

So basically if you tell your own (brown) people, you could just as well send a propagand avideo to a TV station. That bunch of loudmouths with little brain is not going to keep a secret.


My guess is on simple sociopaths. They probbaly justified their criminal live with some ideological BS about fighting against some BS threat.

[bourbon]

It's furthermore known that many people in far right wing groups are hired by domestic intelligence for reporting.

So basically if you tell your own (brown) people, you could just as well send a propagand avideo to a TV station. That bunch of loudmouths with little brain is not going to keep a secret.

Which makes me wonder if they even showed the videos to anyone else at all?

If their videos implicate them in the murders as articles say, they were would have been exposed to both informants and cyber-monitoring if they disseminated the video over an internet forum. In addition to domestic intelligence there may be private groups that conduct these activities as well; such is the case in the US.

Which would lend credence to:

My guess is on simple sociopaths. They probbaly justified their criminal live with some ideological BS about fighting against some BS threat.

[davidbfpo]

Catching up on my reading, hat tip to Legal War on Terror's weekly mailing for the pointers.

This paragraph appears almost standard crime reporting and with the caveat 'innocent till proven guilty':

Another suspect has been arrested in the eastern German city of Jena in connection with a series of murders linked to neo-Nazis. The 36-year-old is accused of being an accessory to murder and of attempted murder.

Not exactly standard reporting IMHO:

Prosecutors believe the 36-year-old German helped provide the group with money and weapons, allowing the cell to live undetected for years. Ralf W. has reportedly been active in right-wing extremist circles in the state of Thuringia since 1995. In 2002, he became the deputy head of the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD) in Thuringia.

From:http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15563635,00.html

The NPD is a small political party, with no Federal MPs, it does have elected member sin two Lander (State) assemblies and has long been recognised by German internal intelligence agencies as a threat.

A short background article:http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...nnel=0&sp=true

[bourbon]

Incendiary Informants - Did German Intelligence Fuel Far-Right Extremism?, Spiegel Online, 11/06/2012.

A secret paper written by senior police officers paints a disastrous picture of Germany's domestic intelligence agency. It suggests that the service may have actually strengthened the country's far-right scene through its large network of far-right informants.

Very interesting, but painful to read.

[bourbon]

Interesting points, since terrorism is normally viewed as violent political messaging, so are the crimes committed by this group terrorism or rather just murder?

Without knowing more it looks more like crime and murder, and less like terrorism.

If a group of "true believers" get together to kill Jews, Turks, Drug runners, hookers, or whatever group they have a beef against and they don't advertise it, or execute the murders in a way to propagate a message of fear is it is terrorism or hate crime without terrorism being involved?

Hate crime or just crime. Serial killers frequently have a pattern of victims that will fall into a group, does that make them terrorists? I think more than target profile and selection needs to be considered when calling someone a terrorist.