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Thread: Germany (catch all, incl. terrorism)

  1. #161
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    It's still a bit early to discuss this. Judging by the press reports, even the police is busy trying to form an accurate picture.

    They had apparently been unable to connect multiple violent crimes over a decade to a common theme because the 'terrorists' (judging by the news, "sociopaths" would be as accurate) did not publish anything.

  2. #162
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Survival without publicity

    Fuchs,

    Agreed. It is rather a strange phenomena for political killers to act and not publicise their actions. Which hardly makes them terrorists either. Plus the traditional difficulties for law enforcement of linking crimes and linking suspects to crimes. Add in keeping the secret within such a small group, who appear to be all bound together and living together until the end.

    Hardly "Lone Wolves" of course, more like a pack of wolves.

    It will be interesting to see what books etc they have been reading.

    Reminds me of the Greek November 17th group, who lasted from 1975 to 2002:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolut...on_17_November They were finally ended when one member was captured and the "dominoes" fell.

    Odd that in Olso Brevik made a court appearance today:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15720289
    davidbfpo

  3. #163
    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    The murky world of intelligence gathering appears:

    German Lawmakers to Probe Neo-Nazi Cell as Agencies Questioned
    , by Patrick Donahue. Bloomberg, 15 November 2011.
    Nov. 15 (Bloomberg) -- German officials pledged to find out how an underground neo-Nazi cell could have carried out murders, attacks and bank robberies for over a decade as the widening scandal turned to the role played by domestic intelligence.

    Lawmakers who oversee intelligence matters in the lower house of parliament will investigate what security agents knew about an organization calling itself the National Socialist Underground, a group of at least three extremists that has in the past week been accused of carrying out 10 primarily race- motivated killings throughout Germany since 2000.
    Oppermann confirmed that an undercover agent was at the crime scene of an April 2006 shooting of an Internet cafe owner in the western city of Kassel, though the agent told authorities he’d left before the killing took place.
    “[S]omething in his tone now reminded her of his explanations of asymmetric warfare, a topic in which he had a keen and abiding interest. She remembered him telling her how terrorism was almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries…” - Zero History, William Gibson

  4. #164
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default German reports

    A German report, added in case a nearer to the scene report helps:http://www.spiegel.de/international/...797572,00.html

    Plus a graphic for background:http://www.spiegel.de/flash/flash-27425.html
    davidbfpo

  5. #165
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    A German report, added in case a nearer to the scene report helps:http://www.spiegel.de/international/...797572,00.html

    Plus a graphic for background:http://www.spiegel.de/flash/flash-27425.html
    I'm usually not the guy to jumb conclusions, but it really seems to be an affair with many questions for many persons in the Bund and the Lnder, in the politics and the police. Especially the role of the Verfassungsschutz and it's V-men. It is difficult to declare as terrorism for the reason given by others, but maybe it is a posthumous one which can not be directly tackled by the police as most of the terrorist cell are already dead.

    The nickname "little Adolf" for a key V-men of the whole affair has a dark shade perhaps not know by many. The orignal worked as a V-men in the chaotic years after the end of the Great war. Maybe his role as V-man was well know to important others in the Neo-movement?
    Last edited by Firn; 11-16-2011 at 05:40 PM.

  6. #166
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Clarity

    Firn,

    Thank you for the update.

    Verfassungsschutz is the German word for 'Protection of the Constitution' or internal security.

    I am aware that both Federal and Lander (State) bodies are intelligence agencies and do not have powers of arrest & search. Due to the constitution, history and politics even some of their information gathering is limited, so placing a greater reliance on the relationship with the police.
    davidbfpo

  7. #167
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Some background:

    Right wing terror was an invention of the post-WWI period (1919). The leftists attempted revolutions, were defeated in civil-war like scenes on the streets and then the right wingers proceeded to try some coup d'etats. The army was largely neutral, but paramilitary right-wing militias (Freikorps) participated.

    The open combat of the 1919-1923 period subsided after the hyperinflation, but right and left wing continued (sporadic) violence.

    During this time it became obvious that the establishment's police and courts (old national-conservative men) were biased.
    The police was effectively in its work against left-wing criminals and the judges preferred maximum sentences on them.
    Against right wing violence (even homicides) there was rarely an arrest and there were even cases where right wing murderers only had to pay a fine.

    This (and some unpleasant experiences in the early Federal Republic history till the '68s) led to the phrase 'auf dem rechten Auge blind' (blind on the right eye.
    This phrase has already been revived in regard to the current scandal, becuase it appears to be the only explanation that survives Occam's Razor.
    The quantity of cases of ineffectiveness on part of police and intelligence agents in this case is so great that randomness is a poor explanation.

    ---------------------

    The whole thing is terribly embarrassing on many levels, for
    multiple states, the federal level, multiple parties in power, multiple types of agencies were failing.
    On top of that it plays into the hands of the left-wing Antifa (anti-fascists, a very wide definition) and multiple minority groups (Muslim groups are already complaining that they were under scrutiny, but the group of right wingers killed more than Muslim terrorists in Germany and it wasn't even known).

    It's also amazing how in a country of increased domestic espionage, a need to register at the county when you move your appartment and so on at least one of the group was able to live in the underground for more than 10 years. On top of that, the Verfassungsschutz surely had to spot him sometime in this period.



    I'd also like to point out that during the roughly ten years of right wing killings, several bus drivers killed more people than the whole right wing. Or left wing. Or Muslims.
    Bus drivers are scary as a group by comparison!
    (Well, either that of these errorists aren't exactly scary. Make your choice!)


    Sven <--- still using busses

  8. #168
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    It seems that the various agencies were not only blind on the right eye, but also deaf on the right ear.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/i...-11532117.html

    „Dönerkiller“ heißt der [2010] Song aus der CD „Adolf Hitler lebt!“, in dem die Band die Mordserie an acht türkischen und einem griechischen Geschäftsmann klar als zusammenhängende, ausländerfeindliche Taten eines „Dönerkillers“ feiert und sich daran ergötzt, dass die Behörden einem Phantom nachjagen: „Neun mal hat er es jetzt schon getan“, die Ermittler „drehen durch, weil man ihn nicht findet. Er kommt, er tötet und verschwindet“.
    "Gigi und die braunen Stadtmusikanten" ( somewhat a pun on the Bremer Stadtmusikanten) made a song in 2010 which it was taken for granted that the various killing were committed by a Dönerkiller which spreads fear in the Kebabs (turkish fast food rest.) which was not sated with 9 (victims). This band is said to be among the most prominent extreme right-wing bands.

    Die mythisch-musikalische Überhöhung der drei Mitglieder der Terrorzelle wiederum hatte schon kurz nach ihrem Abtauchen in die Illegalität begonnen. In einem Lied aus dem Jahr 1999 thematisiert das rechtsextremistische Duo „Eichenlaub“ das Verschwinden der drei. „Eichenlaub“ war direkt mit der Kameradschaft „Thüringer Heimatschutz“ verbunden, aus der Böhnhardt, Mundlos und Frau Z. kamen. „Ihr hattet wohl keine andere Wahl“, heißt es in dem Lied. Und: „Der Kampf geht weiter, für unser deutsches Vaterland.“
    A small band "Eichenlaub" (Oak being the "German" tree) linked to the Thuringian Homeguard from which the three suspects come, sung about them and their disappearing. "You had probably no other chance", and "The fight goes on, for our German fatherland".

    ----

    Of course it is pretty difficult to know if rumours by good comrades caused dear Gigi to write such a wonderful song or if it was just hopeful speculation. And with hindsight it is easy to connect the dots. But it shows that it was thinkable to view the seemingly unlinked killings in such a specific context.

    It really is, as Fuchs wrote, a big scandal and pretty hard to argue that it was a massive failure on many levels. Maybe the most lentinent view on the whole business is that the Verfassungsschutz felt that they had such good info about the various Neonazis groups, especially with the many V-men, that they could do nothing of such scale without their knowledge.

    P.S: This guy featured in the propaganda material compiled by the trio.
    Last edited by Firn; 11-17-2011 at 07:26 PM.

  9. #169
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    Default Anticipatory Prosecution in Germany and U. S.

    From Bobby Chesney (Lawfare), Prosecuting Conspiracies Before Attacks Occur: Comparing German to American Law in the El-Kabir Case:

    Last week I noted that the United States seeks the extradition of Abdeladim El-Kabir, a man currently held in Germany based on allegations that he was part of an al Qaeda-related cell trained in Pakistan and now planning a bombing somewhere in Europe. I posed the question why the Germans would be willing to extradite him rather than prosecute him themselves. The answer may turn on the particularities of the elements of the offense with which El-Kabir was charged.

    My understanding is that he is charged there with “membership in a terrorist organization,” in violation of section 129a of the German Penal Code. That law provides, in relevant part:

    (1) Whoever forms an organization, the objectives or activity of which are directed towards the commission of:

    1. murder, manslaughter or genocide (Sections 211,212 or 220a);

    2. crimes against personal liberty in cases under Sections 239a or 239b; or

    3. crimes under Section 305a or crimes dangerous to the public in cases under Sections 306 to 306c or 307 subsections (1) to (3), 308 subsections (1) to (4), 309 subsections (1) to (5), 313, 314 or 315 subsections (1),3 or 4, 316b subsections (1) or (3), or 316c subsections (1) to (3), or whoever participates in such an organization as a member,

    shall be punished with imprisonment from one year to ten years.



    (3) Whoever supports an organization indicated in subsection (1) or recruits for it, shall be punished with imprisonment from six months to five years.

    The key point is that prosecutors must show that El-Kabir either formed or supported an organization directed toward the commission of one of the listed offenses, which in this case would include murder.

    Now it may seem at first blush that this would be simple enough, since the reporting is focused on the idea that these guys were planning to carry out a bombing. But there is a spectrum that runs from having the general idea of carrying out such an attack, through the preliminary steps of preparing and selecting a target, and culminating in the attempt - and the million dollar question here is where German law attaches liability on that spectrum for this purpose.

    I’m no expert on German law, but my impression is that it requires at least some degree of specificity as to the particular target, as opposed to attaching liability at the point where the men simply agree to carry out a bombing against someone. If that is correct, it is easy to see how it might make it hard to convict these men. American conspiracy law, in contrast, would permit prosecution so long as the men had agreed to carry out an unlawful attack, even if the particulars were to be determined later. This, in short, may explain why the U.S. is stepping in with an extradition request.
    Chesney's 2007 Article, Beyond Conspiracy? Anticipatory Prosecution and the Challenge of Unaffiliated Terrorism, explains the scope of US law in 2006:

    Abstract:

    How early does criminal liability attach along the continuum between planning and committing a terrorist act? And in light of the answer to that question, have we struck an appropriate balance between the benefits of prevention and the off-setting costs in terms of a potentially-increased rate of false-positives and foregone opportunities to gather additional intelligence and evidence? These questions are pressing, particularly in light of statements from senior government officials that the Justice Department will be forward-leaning in its interpretation of its anticipatory-prosecution powers. My aim in this article is to establish a shared understanding regarding the first question in order to facilitate an intelligent debate regarding the second.

    In some respects, this is well-trodden ground. I and others have written previously of the government's sweeping capacity under 18 U.S.C. Section 2339B to prosecute potential terrorists who can be linked in some fashion to a designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs). But it is becoming clear that the utility of Section 2339B is eroding in the face of several developments, most notably the ongoing decentralization of what might be called the global jihad movement. Simply put, it is becoming less common for a suspected terrorist to be vulnerable to a Section 2339B FTO-support prosecution. What, then, is the government's capacity for anticipatory prosecution when confronted with unaffiliated terrorism?

    Setting aside the possibility of a pretextual charge based on some unrelated offense by a suspect, the basic options are a conspiracy charge under a terrorism-related provision such as 18 U.S.C. Section 956(a) or a charge under 18 U.S.C. Section 2339A, the lesser-known of the two material-support statutes. The article identifies the earliest plausible point of intervention under both options, and examines the extent to which indictments in post-9/11 prosecutions have stayed within these boundaries. My most notable conclusion, perhaps, is that Section 2339A can be and arguably has been used to create a capacious form of inchoate liability in circumstances that otherwise would have to be charged under the relatively-demanding standards of attempt.
    If anything, the scope of US law has expanded from 2006 to the present (thread, Terrorism in the USA:threat & response (merged thread) ) and its penalties are stiffer than the German law.

    Regards

    Mike

  10. #170
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default 'Pink Panther' murders see Nazi ghosts return to haunt Germany

    As expected journalists have descended upon Zwichau, ostensibly to get first-hand information, there is some in this article, although this section struck me as reflecting media briefings:

    ...if the German authorities know the significance of the logo, they are not saying yet. But it is clear that they have much more information on the gang. The trio first came to their attention in the mid 1990s, when they belonged to a far-Right Kameradschaft, or comradeship group, in the east German town of Jena, where they all grew up.

    Germany's equivalent of MI5 had 24 fat files on the group's activities, including details of Bhnhardt's arrest for hanging a Jewish mannequin from a highway bridge, and Miss Zschpe being charged with hate speech for having a Monopoly board with a "concentration camp" instead of a "jail" square.
    But in 1998, after being accused of a pipe bomb plot, the three went on the run remaining free despite what German police claimed was an "extensive manhunt".

    Some believe that Germany's recent experience of Islamic terrorists in particular the so-called Hamburg cell, who were key to the September 11 attacks led the country's security services to overlook domestic threats
    Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...t-Germany.html
    davidbfpo

  11. #171
    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    Default Still confusing.

    What is the point committing symbolic terrorism (murdering Turkish workers) if a cause or group is not claimed (which these guys didn't do)?

    Turkish workers are not terrorized if they do not know that the victims were killed just for being Turkish workers. To borrow from my signature quote: “terrorism [is] almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries”.
    “[S]omething in his tone now reminded her of his explanations of asymmetric warfare, a topic in which he had a keen and abiding interest. She remembered him telling her how terrorism was almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries…” - Zero History, William Gibson

  12. #172
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Still confusing?

    Bourbon,

    Yes, it is. I'm still trying to recall another extremist group that have used the tactic 'Survival without publicity'.

    Perhaps their motivation was purely internal within the group. It appears some of the communities affected were saying "It could be the Nazis you know", but this appears to have gained no traction or acceptance, either officially or from the media.

    Given the antagonism towards some communities - not solely immigrants - in the political extremes across Europe, one wonders could there be similar violent crimes series where those responsible use 'Survival without publicity'.
    davidbfpo

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    Default true believers

    Turkish workers are not terrorized if they do not know that the victims were killed just for being Turkish workers. To borrow from my signature quote: “terrorism [is] almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries”.
    Interesting points, since terrorism is normally viewed as violent political messaging, so are the crimes committed by this group terrorism or rather just murder? When the KKK was conducting similiar hate crimes in the U.S. they made quite a show out of it to spread terror, so in my view it was clearly terrorism. If a group of "true believers" get together to kill Jews, Turks, Drug runners, hookers, or whatever group they have a beef against and they don't advertise it, or execute the murders in a way to propagate a message of fear is it is terrorism or hate crime without terrorism being involved?

  14. #174
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    Interesting points, since terrorism is normally viewed as violent political messaging, so are the crimes committed by this group terrorism or rather just murder? When the KKK was conducting similiar hate crimes in the U.S. they made quite a show out of it to spread terror, so in my view it was clearly terrorism. If a group of "true believers" get together to kill Jews, Turks, Drug runners, hookers, or whatever group they have a beef against and they don't advertise it, or execute the murders in a way to propagate a message of fear is it is terrorism or hate crime without terrorism being involved?
    Perhaps it was a bloody show for their right-wing comrades? Some sort of "(not so) lonely heroism" for the good of the brown fatherland? Some perverted Mutprobe (boyish "test of courage") to be circulated among the like-minded in childish comics starring the Pink Panther? The lack of publicity, the right-wing songs and the wider net of supporters as suspected before might indicate that.

  15. #175
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Gang initiation ritual is not applicable.

    The far right wing in Germany is a filter that only keeps back the dumbest people and a couple people who have mediocre intellect and seize on the opportunity to look smart in comparison and lead someone.

    It's furthermore known that many people in far right wing groups are hired by domestic intelligence for reporting.

    So basically if you tell your own (brown) people, you could just as well send a propagand avideo to a TV station. That bunch of loudmouths with little brain is not going to keep a secret.


    My guess is on simple sociopaths. They probbaly justified their criminal live with some ideological BS about fighting against some BS threat.

  16. #176
    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    Interesting points, since terrorism is normally viewed as violent political messaging, so are the crimes committed by this group terrorism or rather just murder?
    Without knowing more it looks more like crime and murder, and less like terrorism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    If a group of "true believers" get together to kill Jews, Turks, Drug runners, hookers, or whatever group they have a beef against and they don't advertise it, or execute the murders in a way to propagate a message of fear is it is terrorism or hate crime without terrorism being involved?
    Hate crime or just crime. Serial killers frequently have a pattern of victims that will fall into a group, does that make them terrorists? I think more than target profile and selection needs to be considered when calling someone a terrorist.
    “[S]omething in his tone now reminded her of his explanations of asymmetric warfare, a topic in which he had a keen and abiding interest. She remembered him telling her how terrorism was almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries…” - Zero History, William Gibson

  17. #177
    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    It's furthermore known that many people in far right wing groups are hired by domestic intelligence for reporting.

    So basically if you tell your own (brown) people, you could just as well send a propagand avideo to a TV station. That bunch of loudmouths with little brain is not going to keep a secret.
    Which makes me wonder if they even showed the videos to anyone else at all?

    If their videos implicate them in the murders as articles say, they were would have been exposed to both informants and cyber-monitoring if they disseminated the video over an internet forum. In addition to domestic intelligence there may be private groups that conduct these activities as well; such is the case in the US.

    Which would lend credence to:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    My guess is on simple sociopaths. They probbaly justified their criminal live with some ideological BS about fighting against some BS threat.
    “[S]omething in his tone now reminded her of his explanations of asymmetric warfare, a topic in which he had a keen and abiding interest. She remembered him telling her how terrorism was almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries…” - Zero History, William Gibson

  18. #178
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Update

    Catching up on my reading, hat tip to Legal War on Terror's weekly mailing for the pointers.

    This paragraph appears almost standard crime reporting and with the caveat 'innocent till proven guilty':
    Another suspect has been arrested in the eastern German city of Jena in connection with a series of murders linked to neo-Nazis. The 36-year-old is accused of being an accessory to murder and of attempted murder.
    Not exactly standard reporting IMHO:
    Prosecutors believe the 36-year-old German helped provide the group with money and weapons, allowing the cell to live undetected for years. Ralf W. has reportedly been active in right-wing extremist circles in the state of Thuringia since 1995. In 2002, he became the deputy head of the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD) in Thuringia.
    From:http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15563635,00.html

    The NPD is a small political party, with no Federal MPs, it does have elected member sin two Lander (State) assemblies and has long been recognised by German internal intelligence agencies as a threat.

    A short background article:http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...nnel=0&sp=true
    davidbfpo

  19. #179
    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
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    Haven't seen this in any other threads, might as well drop it here :

    FRANKFURT, Germany — Both prosecutors and defense attorneys discounted testimony Thursday by a journalist who said he had gathered evidence showing that the man charged with killing two U.S. airmen at Frankfurt Airport last March had been in Bosnia-Herzegovina the previous summer and was likely associated with radical Islamists.

    Arid Uka, charged with two counts of murder and three counts of attempted murder in the March 2 shooting of U.S. airmen as they boarded a bus at Frankfurt Airport, was to have been sentenced last month. But the publication of an article in a Stuttgart newspaper alleging that Uka had been seen in the central Bosnian town of Zenica in the summer of 2010 led the court to call the journalist to testify.
    http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/g...trial-1.167515
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


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  20. #180
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    An interesting consequence of the NSU pseudo terror affair is that the Verfassungsschutz ('constitution security'; 17 interior intelligence services; 1 per state + a federal one) has come under scrutiny.

    It has spent more attention on the left wing (PDS, later "Die Linke", a leftist party in many German parliaments) than on the right wing (mostly NPD). It was first accused of being blind on the right eye (and a certain blindness cannot be contested given its failure) and now the discussion turns to the ridiculous list of "Die LINKE" members of parliament who are under observation by the Verfassungsschutz (don't remember if this discussion is about state or federal level, I cannot distinguish their characters anyway).
    The agency observes 27 of them, apparently all of them are rather reformers and moderates in their party.

    It's not in the news as interpretation, but my interpretation and probably the implication in most reports is that the observation was more aimed at discovering something that could hurt politically successful leftists rather than about observing leftist radicals who are actually dangerous.
    The former is obviously not the job of the Verfassungsschutz, but of journalists.

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