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Thread: What it means when the US goes to war

  1. #21
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Different voices

    THis is not an easy thread to read, it is a pandora's box of issues and history. The original article, which I've not read, can hardly be seen as open minded and placing it on SWC was boudn to lead to a robust reaction.

    We are here to learn from each other's different experiences. Painful thtough they maybe, debate and learning is not conflict-free.

    I watched the Bosnia conflict, which was regularly reported in the UK, often with a news report every night, notably by Martin Bell of the BBC. Yes, many got bored and confused by our role in UNPROFOR. Colonel Bob Stewart's description of Bosnia and asking why we were there had a massive public impact.

    The UK government's policy, a Conservative government, held to the crazy policy of a "level playing field", which nothing like level or a playing field. It disgusted me, but I was in a tiny minority who wanted forceful action taken. The UK public, let alone others in UNPROFOR, were unwilling to accept casualties until very late on.

    Many subscribe to the view that the reporting and imagery of the mortar bombing of a Sarejevo market, by CNN and others, finally changed public opinion in Europe and the USA. General Sir Michael Rose's book, one of the few I've read on Bosnia, has good chapters on this period.

    We need to learn all the time and it is difficult.

    davidbfpo

  2. #22
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Sarajevo, an added thought.

    You said earlier:
    ...Nor should I hope anymore that we can talk openly and like equals. The first post I did here (deciding to post again and try to have some conversations here after I was banned) was deleted minute after I post it! Strangely, post appeared after but first reaction on my post told me volumes. They are many more things to say and to explain, but I just don’t see possibility here nor chance for that… And with that I will finish leaving you the floor and this (your) place to rant against me and my opinions and beliefs.
    First, I'll note that in this thread while some including me disagree with you on some things and more disagreed with Hedges, everyone has been more than reasonable IMO.

    I spent some time, long ago, in the ME. Stationed in one country and visited many others. Had I walked in one of the many restaurants I ate in while there and said, loudly that "Islam is the problem and you all hate Christians" or something worse (and I'll emphasize that I do not and did not think that and would never have said such a thing) I suspect most of the people in the restaurant, being as polite as folks in the ME are, would have ignored me. Still, there's a strong possibility someone would've broken a chair over my head. If that had happened, I would have deserved it.

    Yet, you seem to believe that if you come into a Weblog board that is heavily populated with Americans, many of whom are current or former US military people and say some extremely critical and sometimes controversial things while posting links to some great and good articles and occasionally to some that have a very anti-American slant (I include Hedges article in that category) that these people should simply uncritically agree with you. I think, perhaps, that is an unfair expectation.

    I think you can add to this board but I suggest that fairly constant accusations of unmitigated evil can cause a certain lack of welcome. Seems unnecessary to me; we ought to be able to disagree without getting in cat fights. Your comments on this thread show you and we can discuss things reasonably even though it started out with an inflammatory link and it seems to me that reason can continue to be displayed by all of us.

  3. #23
    Council Member Backwards Observer's Avatar
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    Default Respect

    I agree with Ken White's added thought; the degree of level-headedness and "adult leadership" shown responding to some of these rather provocative posts is remarkable given the current climate.
    Having said that, I imagine that very few military organizations would produce an individual like Hugh Thompson.



    "all warfare is based on self-deception"

  4. #24
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Wink Somewhat of a tangent, but not really...

    I just got an email from MEMRI which is, by analogy, on point to the general discussion.

    Algerian Dissident Journalist Arezki Ait Larbi: Stop "Witchcraft Trials" For Christians in Algeria

    In the western Algerian city of Tiaret, a 37-year-old convert to Christianity is currently on trial for "practicing a non-Muslim religion without authorization," under a 2006 law regulating the religious practice of non-Muslims. The charges were brought against her after police found copies of the Bible in her possession.(1)

    In a May 27, 2008 article in the Algerian El-Watan daily, Algerian dissident and journalist Arezki Ait Larbi called the case a "witchcraft trial" and described a tightening alliance between the government and Islamists in the country. He argued that the only way out of the impasse was the formation of a popular movement that would confront intolerance and reaffirm respect for liberty of religion and conscience.

    Arezki Ait Larbi, currently a correspondent for the French daily Le Figaro, is a well-known civil rights activist who has been imprisoned several times since he first became active in public affairs, during the "Berber Spring" of 1980. He was recently acquitted of charges of defamation brought against him for an article he wrote documenting torture in Algerian prisons.(2)

    More...
    As a number of you know, I've spent a fair amount of time studying witchcraft and witch trials. One point that comes through very clearly when you lok at the trials, whether they are in Europe, Africa, North America or the Middle East, is practice of social labelling and social blame associated with them. Put really simply, you identify a source of "Evil", you name it and, most importantly, you drench the symbolic environment with that association. After a while, it becomes almost impossible for people to dis-aggregate the associations. The reason I think this is relevant to the current discussion is because the labelling and association process is (apparently) a human universal that operates regardless of culture, although the punishments differ.

    There is a second process, again universal, that needs to be brought up - "reification". This is just a fancy way of saying take a concept, idea or drug induced hallucination and treat it as if i were a real "thing" (or person). The process of reification operates in almost all settings and it is one of the most difficult processes for people, as individuals, to deal with, especially when emotions run high.

    Food for thought...

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  5. #25
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    Here is my issue with the Hedges piece, aside from it being insulting.

    Here are sentences 2 through 11:

    The fear and stress push troops to view everyone around them as the enemy. The hostility is compounded when the enemy, as in Iraq, is elusive, shadowy and hard to find. The rage soldiers feel after a roadside bomb explodes, killing or maiming their comrades, is one that is easily directed, over time, to innocent civilians who are seen to support the insurgents.

    Civilians and combatants, in the eyes of the beleaguered troops, merge into one entity. These civilians, who rarely interact with soldiers or marines, are to most of the occupation troops in Iraq nameless, faceless and easily turned into abstractions of hate. They are dismissed as less than human. It is a short psychological leap, but a massive moral leap. It is a leap from killing - the shooting of someone who has the capacity to do you harm - to murder - the deadly assault against someone who cannot harm you.

    The war in Iraq is now primarily about murder. There is very little killing.
    Those sentences are referenced below (2 through 11):
    2: False
    3: An assumption based upon the previous false sentence
    4: Arguably false, even if the previous sentences are accepted for the sake of argument.
    5: False
    6: False
    7: False
    8: First clause is false; second is an observation about previous false statements.
    9: An assumption based upon the previous false sentences
    10: False
    11: False

    If the author is a journalist, then he has wiped his butt with any professional ethics that he may have once had and shifted his focus from truth to fantasy. There are lots of legitimate gripes that have been raised on this thread – including by Sarajevo. But the piece written by Hedges is, empirically speaking, crap.

  6. #26
    Council Member Uboat509's Avatar
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    I tried to read this thing but I didn't get very far. This is Ward Churchill level of rhetorical garbage. As a career soldier I am sick to death of of the stereotypes that the anti-war crowd keeps trying to attach to us. Apparently we are all either viscous cold blooded baby killers or tortured victims on the ragged edge of suicidal break down or possibly even both. Did I miss something? I never killed or witnessed the killing of a civilian during my tour in Iraq nor do I have flash backs and I am not suicidal (I did inadvertently watch an episode of Sex in the City with my wife once but that is as close to suicidal as I have ever been). This stuff wouldn't bother me but I know that a large percentage of the public has never been to Iraq or Afghanistan and does not even know anyone who has. This kind of agitprop is the only way many of them get their information about what is going on in those places. As it is many people assume that orders to one of those places is tantamount to a death sentence. It never fails to irritate me when I tell someone that I have been to Iraq and they get that sad look and tell me they are sorry, like a relative just died. It doesn't happen every time. Some say thank-you. Some say Dude, what's it like? But enough of them tell me that they are sorry to make me avoid mentioning it around anyone I don't know. At times it seems like I should feel guilty that I came back normal and well adjusted or at least as much as I was when I left.

    SFC W

  7. #27
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Gack. Me too. Once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
    ...I am not suicidal (I did inadvertently watch an episode of Sex in the City with my wife once but that is as close to suicidal as I have ever been).
    I was resuscitated by my daughter with massive quantities of bourbon. Good kid...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
    It never fails to irritate me when I tell someone that I have been to Iraq and they get that sad look and tell me they are sorry, like a relative just died. It doesn't happen every time. Some say thank-you. Some say Dude, what's it like? But enough of them tell me that they are sorry to make me avoid mentioning it around anyone I don't know.
    Same here. A few weeks ago, I was at a social function full of people who are not like me. I had to wear a suit and pretend that I wanted to be there. I generally avoid telling people that I was in the military or that I served in Iraq for the very reasons that you cite. One woman asked what I was doing for work - I pointed out that I quit my job and became a full-time student and tried to focus the discussion more on the latter. She then asked what I did for work. I reluctantly disclosed that I was in the Army. At that point, I was debating whether to rifle through her purse for her nitroglycerin pills because she clutched her chest, nearly fell over, and exclaimed, "oh no! That's terrible! Did you have to go to Iraq?"

  9. #29
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Genes.

    I've never had a bad dream much less anything more severe. Multi-tour kid says he doesn't have PTSD, he gives it.

    Genes. I'm firmly convinced some minds are hard wired for the job; most others can adapt to it to one degree or another and still others cannot even think about it without getting the vapors.

  10. #30
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Most of us see it as a bunch of Americans who happen to be Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheist, Mormon, Shintoist, Confucian, Coptic, Taoists and, yes, Muslim, attacking Iraq -- not Iraqis, not Muslims -- Iraq; specifically Saddam Hussein's Iraq to send the message to the ME (NOT to Muslims, to the ME) to stop the attacks on US interests around the world (Afghanistan was different -- it was to not attack the US on its own soil. Afghanistan is NOT in the ME). So to us, there's no religious component at all. As for the shooting of people; we shoot at people who are or are (sometimes wrongly) presumed to be, threats or are shooting at us. Religion doesn't enter into it.

    Justice for all is a good goal; hopefully that's what most of us strive for -- no matter how difficult it is to put into practice.

    But there is more than one way to look at things...
    This doesn't mean much for THEM, just for the West.
    The perception is different, therefore also the impact.

    The Iraq war was apparently being seen as an offence against a much larger group than just Iraqi Ba'ath leaders.
    That will yield long-term problems even if the Iraq war will be 'won'.

    It would be a good idea to care about this, and to do something against it that goes beyond plain info war.

    The relations between European countries post-'45 were deliberately repaired by political cooperation/treaties, many low-level exchanges and a deliberate turn away from the past.
    Maybe the Western world should do something like this (if the Arab world is really being perceived as important, which it should be at least in Europe since it's the southern flank).

    The continuation of the war - even if atrocities are the exception of the rule - is obviously damaging relations to a huge part of the world.
    Long-time poor relationships mean that many age-groups will get indoctrinated against us. It'd be much easier to revert the troubles if the bad relations period is short and not well-engrained in memories.

  11. #31
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    My favorite regarding my time in Afghanistan with a civilian friend of mine went as follows:

    Dude: "So how was Afghanistan?"
    Me: "Oh, it was ok, it was like the Wild West with high explosives, internal combustion engines and perpetual digestive discomfort."
    Dude: "That sounds awful, was it stressful?"
    Me: "Actually, I had a great time, just wish the military procured a softer brand of ####paper."

    End of discussion.
    "Speak English! said the Eaglet. "I don't know the meaning of half those long words, and what's more, I don't believe you do either!"

    The Eaglet from Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland

  12. #32
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Perceptions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    This doesn't mean much for THEM, just for the West.
    The perception is different, therefore also the impact.
    Of course it is; I was trying to explain to a Muslim that our perception is just as valid as their perception even though the two perceptions differ significantly. I did that with full knowledge that he was unlikely to be persuaded at this time -- but so he (and others) could recall years from now when it becomes more apparent to many in the world he heard it here first...
    The Iraq war was apparently being seen as an offence against a much larger group than just Iraqi Ba'ath leaders.That will yield long-term problems even if the Iraq war will be 'won'.
    There is no winning or losing in such wars, all one can do is, hopefully, achieve an acceptable outcome. "Long term" is relative. Folks in the ME have long memories, no question -- but they are also extremely pragmatic. My guess is that the problems will be minor.
    It would be a good idea to care about this, and to do something against it that goes beyond plain info war.
    Your suggestion is?
    ...Maybe the Western world should do something like this (if the Arab world is really being perceived as important, which it should be at least in Europe since it's the southern flank).
    Having spent only a couple of years in the ME, I'm no expert but I did learn they have a different thought process on many things; treaties not being the least of them...
    The continuation of the war - even if atrocities are the exception of the rule - is obviously damaging relations to a huge part of the world.
    Whose atrocities? Looks to me like AQ is losing fans by the day and the west is gaining a few...
    Long-time poor relationships mean that many age-groups will get indoctrinated against us. It'd be much easier to revert the troubles if the bad relations period is short and not well-engrained in memories.
    Possibly true; equally possible that those who are now kids will be otherwise disposed. In any event, as I said, the folks in the ME do not think like we do -- not wrongly, just differently -- and they are the ultimate pragmatists.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    In any event, as I said, the folks in the ME do not think like we do - [] - and they are the ultimate pragmatists.
    [boldface added by Norfolk]

    Granted, I know little of the ME, but even dim little me can say that that is very possible the most cutting and succinct statement that could ever be made regarding the modus operandi of that region. Not to mention the pairing of two diametrically opposite terms - "Ultimate" - reflecting an absolute quality; and "Pragmatic" - reflecting a relative quality; into a synthetic whole that is at once both self-contradictory and yet nevertheless fully explanatory. The ME makes sense to me now, and now I'm thoroughly confused!

    You do indeed possess a sharp wit, Ken (just keep it away from my throat or any other such vital area.)

  14. #34
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Alas, my

    rapier is blunted...

  15. #35
    Council Member J Wolfsberger's Avatar
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    Default For every jackass ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    Same here. A few weeks ago, I was at a social function full of people who are not like me. I had to wear a suit and pretend that I wanted to be there. I generally avoid telling people that I was in the military or that I served in Iraq for the very reasons that you cite. One woman asked what I was doing for work - I pointed out that I quit my job and became a full-time student and tried to focus the discussion more on the latter. She then asked what I did for work. I reluctantly disclosed that I was in the Army. At that point, I was debating whether to rifle through her purse for her nitroglycerin pills because she clutched her chest, nearly fell over, and exclaimed, "oh no! That's terrible! Did you have to go to Iraq?"
    In the drinking establishments I have been known to frequent, soldiers, especially in uniform, don't buy many of their own drinks. And the conversations will generally be interrupted three or four times a night by people walking over to thank them for their service.
    John Wolfsberger, Jr.

    An unruffled person with some useful skills.

  16. #36
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    Default Ditto,

    in the wilds of Upper Michigan. People have a lot of different attitudes about wars, but they are not often directed against the guys and gals who fight them.

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