Taking Care of Field Grade Officers on TDY...NOT!!!

[Sledge142]

I couldn't find what looked like an appropriate thread, but just had to get the word out on this one (and do some venting in the process)...

The Army sends its majors and LTCs to CGSC-ILE which is now 16 weeks long at Fort Lee...it does not PCS them , but rather sends them TDY...in order to save money the Army has the students eat at pseudo-DFACs monday through friday (they house them 10 miles away in a Holiday Inn that is not near anything)...okay, I get it, you are saving money...now here comes the really fun part...

The Army is about to pilot a program (how it got past the "that is a stupid idea" stage I will never know) that gives 70 army majors/LTCs 10 vans for the TDY...and will not reimburse them for rental cars or POV mileage (they now get 24 miles per day, which actually is less than the 40 they have to drive, but that is the best the Army can do)...what this means is...

-car pooling into work everyday for 16 weeks
-car pooling back and forth for meals every evening
-car pooling to the gym (no longer are you able to make last minute decisions on when to study, go to the gym, eat, sleep, etc.)
-oh, by the way, on the weekends when the DFAC is closed, you can not use the vans to go out on town
-also, the vans can not go out on town even during the week
-no rental cars authorized or POV mileage given

So big Army, offer all the bonuses you want to keep people in, but this idea is as worthless an idea I have ever heard of...can someone explain the Army values to me again?

[Schmedlap]

If money is an issue, then the free use of the rental vans seems like a reasonable amenity. If convenience is the issue, then they can dole out their own money to rent a vehicle for their personal use. I cannot count the number of times that, as a 1LT or CPT, I paid for a rental car and gas on my own dime because it was not authorized on my orders. I also recall a few occasions when I had to share vans with others - in the most recent case, 40 of us shared 3 vans, which required significant coordination between us.

There are two things that I do not understand about this thread...
1 - The reference to "trigger pullers". Are we talking about guys who fire their weapons or are we talking about CGSC-ILE students?
2 - The question referencing the Army Values seems to imply that there is a conflict here between the Army's actions and the Army Values. If so, what is the conflict? If that is not being implied, then what is the question asking?

[Steve Blair]

It sounds like the Army's trying to prepare its folks for the realities of the working world outside the military with that arrangement.

[patmc]

My unit currently has several NCOs at a TDY course at Fort Sill. The group was not authorized POV's, and carpooled together in a van. They stay at a hotel off-post, and all share the 1 van. Some of the GTC's do not work, so they have been sharing a GTC. They've been doing this for several months now. I do not envy them, as once they return, we will begin pre-deployment training.

The Army is "saving" money across the board, where it can. I would prefer they readjust future purchases and developments (FCS) in the budget, and focus on Soldiers currently serving, but that is above my pay grade. I also have a hard time believing Majors at Fort Lee are the Trigger Pullers. As a former S4, I can attest that Logisticians do great things, but not that.

[Entropy]

So Ft. Lee doesn't have enough on-base billeting for CGSC? That sounds like the problem there.

FWIW, for TDY's in the AF one out of every five or so personnel gets an rental car authorized for communal use. It works out pretty well since there obviously aren't any of the government vehicle restrictions.

[Ranger94]

....humm, and I bet the batteries don't work in the remote control either.

[arty8]

You have got to be kidding me right? You mean to tell me that you have the opportunity to go to an army school, sleep in a bed, eat real food and you are complaining?

During my BNCOC course at Ft. Bragg in Febuary the heat went out in our WWII barracks and for the next eight weeks we learned to live without heat, just slept in our sleeping bags. Then the hot water heater died and we had to shower in the next building for the remaining seven weeks. Then an ice storm shut down post--including our mess hall--for three days and I had to buy food from the gas station in the nearby town, to this day I can't eat a lunchable.

I got back from Iraq a couple of months ago and all I have to say is count your blessings, your living conditions could be much, much worse.

[RTK]

I'm going with arty here.

Officer professional education is far above the scale on the quality of life issues when compared to WLC, BNCOC, and ANCOC. It's fairly embarrassing.

So we don't make money off TDY anymore. I got it. As Arty says, there are worse things out there right now. Bring a car with you on TDY, write the milage off on next year's taxes. Majors and LTCs are far more capable of affording these incidentals when compared to the young E5 or E6 at WLC or BNCOC. They just aren't as vocal about it.

[Sledge142]

...the "suck it up" mentality is completely incongruent with the realities of today...the "vanpooling" issue transcends convenience...it is about facilitating real education (not the death by powerpoint the Army usually calls education)...it is about treating young professionals as they should be treated...it is about a culture of taking care of your people...so what if you had no rental car when YOU went to school...I had to walk five miles through snow uphill to get to mine...

This thread is all about the Army's culture...comments about the remote batteries and such are indicative of a culture that has put the Army thousands of officers and enlisted men short...

And the person who asked if the CGSC-ILE students were trigger pullers...that also is a cultural norm that needs to be discarded...are not we an Army of one...have not the students done their time?...

This thread is very revealing and I will use it to educate the students concerning the "suck it up" mentality that still exists out there...

[Ken White]

...This thread is very revealing and I will use it to educate the students concerning the "suck it up" mentality that still exists out there...

I suspect that is probably a good plan on your part -- and they should bear it in mind for future consideration.

[Steve Blair]

Take it as you will, but you'd also be advised to consider it training for what you'll encounter when you get out of the service. When your company expects you to move (without major compensation, if any), travel (with minimal reimbursement and no IG to turn to when your expense claims are delayed or disallowed), no cost of living adjustments or housing allowances...I could go on. And that's corporate culture. Complain as a young professional, and they fire you and find someone else who'll take the beating without complaining (and with the number of college graduates working in jobs they're over-educated for...the complaining young professional isn't hard to replace). Google-type jobs are the exception out here...not the rule.

Think of this as a transition program...although the Army might not have intended it as such.

[selil]

123456

[RTK]

.
And the person who asked if the CGSC-ILE students were trigger pullers...that also is a cultural norm that needs to be discarded...are not we an Army of one...have not the students done their time?...

No, we're Army Strong. The Army of One touchy feely PBS Kids crap went out the window over a year ago.

Some have done their time, a lot have not. When you look at the inside of the Pentagon with 60% of senior officers and NCOs in there who haven't been deployed during GWOT, I find it hard to be sympathetic. The CSA has done a great job peeling people out of their cubicles.

I have a hard time being supportive of a bunch of field grade officers in Virginia when we, as an Army, can't take care of the wounded warriors in our WTUs. They are the one's who have done their time and done very little bitching comparatively speaking.

Am I telling you to suck it up? You're damned right. You don't have it hard. Ask the E2 with two kids living onpost with a broken car on WIC deploying next month if he feels bad for the Major who has to vanpool with a LTC to his 16 week Army school.

As for the culture of "suck it up" - I take a hell of a lot of pride in being adaptive and completing the mission despite what is thrown at me. I'm pretty sure I could find a work-around on this one.

Use this as a case study. Throw it in the faces of students. Here's another idea - jump yourselves into your rental vans and hop on over to Walter Reed and tell the Soldiers in the wards how tough your life is. I'm sure they'll be pleased to give you their perspective as well.

[Jedburgh]

...This thread is very revealing and I will use it to educate the students concerning the "suck it up" mentality that still exists out there...

It is revealing. I cannot add more than RTK has already stated pretty clearly. I am frankly disgusted by the behavioral tendencies indicated by the content of the post.

In that regard, I have moved this thread from the Trigger-Pullers forum, because it certainly does not belong there.

[marct]

I cannot add more than RTK has already stated pretty clearly. I am frankly disgusted by the behavioral tendencies indicated by the content of the post.

I'll second that. Honestly, it reminds me of "the dog ate my homework" . Leaving the Gen Y stuff aside, however, there is a very good point make which is why wasn't there any housing on base? It strikes me that it would be much more cost efficient to have base housing than pay for vans and Holiday Inns.

Getting back to the Gen Y stuff, this attitude is quite common and, if the research on it is right (and I suspect it is), a lot of it has to do with low birth rates and kids being raised that they were "special". Corporations are paying billions of dollars to get and keep Gen Y, which has got to be he most self-centered generation since the Golliard poets!

[/ rant]....

In that regard, I have moved this thread from the Trigger-Pullers forum, because it certainly does not belong there.

Well, don't forget the "trigger" on the PowerPoint projector .

[wm]

...the "suck it up" mentality is completely incongruent with the realities of today...the "vanpooling" issue transcends convenience...it is about facilitating real education (not the death by powerpoint the Army usually calls education)...it is about treating young professionals as they should be treated...it is about a culture of taking care of your people...so what if you had no rental car when YOU went to school...I had to walk five miles through snow uphill to get to mine...

This thread is all about the Army's culture...comments about the remote batteries and such are indicative of a culture that has put the Army thousands of officers and enlisted men short...

And the person who asked if the CGSC-ILE students were trigger pullers...that also is a cultural norm that needs to be discarded...are not we an Army of one...have not the students done their time?...

This thread is very revealing and I will use it to educate the students concerning the "suck it up" mentality that still exists out there...

I led troops in a very simple way--give the troops as much as you can and give yourself as little as you need to survive. A bunch of O-4s and -5s who may not be able to go out and find some TDY fun because they don't have rental cars and get put up in a hotel 10 miles from anywhere does not really register on my "pain-o-meter."
I'd be more interested in knowing whether the "saved" money is being used to better the lives of junior enlisted folks. I suspect from RTK's post that it isn't.

I expect leaders to suck it up if that's what it takes to make life better for their troops. I also expect leaders to suck it up if that's what those they are leading have to do. That is the message I would hope you impart to the students.

[Cavguy]

Stupid question, is this the distance ILE at Ft. Lee? I didn't know we did ILE there?