Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 67

Thread: Taking Care of Field Grade Officers on TDY...NOT!!!

  1. #21
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Then again, one could be advised to stop digging...

    or not...

    This of course applies to Sledge 142's post ending with "I think you need to suck it up..."

    RTK's got faster fingers than I do...
    Last edited by Ken White; 06-23-2008 at 07:56 PM. Reason: Slowness adaptation

  2. #22
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Honolulu, Hawaii
    Posts
    1,127

    Default

    Without heading too far down this road ...

    I'm going to stick up for Sledge a little here.

    First, he's new to the board. Even though he started with a rant, we shouldn't reinforce the (sometimes stated) perception that the SWC is an echo chamber "clique" where the new guys are beat up on, Ken dispenses sage wisdom, and then Steve Metz shows up with a joke to end the thread.

    Show a little patience and respect for what he is articulating as an injustice. Let's argue the points if we disagree rather than head down the road of personal insult.

    Back on topic ....

    While there is an amount of "call the waaahbulance" in the post (I lived in a hotel during my OBC and drove my POV to Knox), perhaps the arrangements for the students could be a little better. It does suck being mobility limited around a hotel.

    However, I don't think this should be an insurmountable problem for Majors attending MEL 4. I'm suprised no one has a POV for car-pooling or loaning. RTK has a point, lots of guys are sucking down a lot more. Additionally, what good does complaining on SWC do? Have they taken it up with the chain of command? What was the response? Is there a middle ground rather than the Army paying for each student a POV rental for the duration? (When I go TDY with multiple people we have to share rentals 3x person).

    Just some thoughts. Let's keep SWC professional and inclusive.

    Niel
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
    Who is Cavguy?

  3. #23
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Belly of the beast
    Posts
    2,112

    Default

    123456
    Last edited by selil; 06-29-2008 at 03:13 AM.
    Sam Liles
    Selil Blog
    Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
    The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
    All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.

  4. #24
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    Show a little patience and respect for what he is articulating as an injustice.
    What injustice was articulated? No reimbursement for miles in and around TDY site? A O4 or O5 may have to manage their time a little better?

    "-car pooling to the gym (no longer are you able to make last minute decisions on when to study, go to the gym, eat, sleep, etc.)"

    On a side note, I would love to know how this relates to COIN. Is it that we are losing experienced mid-level COIN officers because of rental car/milage reimbursment?

    Maybe the huge amount of brain power on this site ( I am a self diagnosed dummy so I am not included) could contribute in other ways then to figure this one out.

  5. #25
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    1,457

    Default

    The situation Sledge describes is not anything close to hardship, imo, but from my perspective it's just plain dumb and is probably false economy. I can see much to criticize in the system, but not for reasons of hardship. For example, it seems really stupid to me that the DFAC is closed on weekends and the authorized transport cannot be used to go to a restaurant. Where is one supposed to eat? It would piss me off too, but I'd just bring my PoV and that would be that. Still, I think Sledge's last sentance has some merit:

    So big Army, offer all the bonuses you want to keep people in, but this idea is as worthless an idea I have ever heard of...can someone explain the Army values to me again?
    As an all-volunteer force, and as one that is experiencing problems with retention, one would think it would be in the Army's best interest to reduce queep as much as possible. In this case, simply establishing some rules to use the vans for authorized unofficial uses would go a long way to making everyone happier IMO.

    I'll use my own experience as an analogy. I first joined the Navy as an enlisted intel specialist in the early 1990's. I spent over a year in various intense schools along with the expense (to the government) of a high-level security clearance, etc. I finally got to my first duty assignment, inprocessed and after a week was told to report to the base Gym for my "TAD" or "Temporary Additional Duty." My job? Hand out towels for three months. Every E-4 and below gets a bit of TAD love, or at least they did back then. My job was actually cushier than most. Still, it seemed at the time, and it still seems to me all these years later, that it was an incredible waste, particularly right after all that schooling, not to mention a morale killer. I didn't, after all, join the f'ing Navy to pass out f'ing towels! All that information that had been crammed into my head wasn't exploited and built upon immediately at my new unit. If TAD is so important, why not let me apply my skills for a few months and then do my TAD? It's one of those memories that's stuck with me and continues to serve as the emblematic memory of all the things wrong with the Navy that I saw.

    So, my point is that sometimes the little stuff matters. Sometimes the little stuff stays with you and often a lot of little stuff can add up to something big. False economy and queep are two little things that can add up. While I might criticize the tone of Sledge's post, the content, particularly how it might affect the big picture, deserves a look.
    Last edited by Entropy; 06-23-2008 at 11:22 PM. Reason: added an anecdote

  6. #26
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Honolulu, Hawaii
    Posts
    1,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger94 View Post
    What injustice was articulated? No reimbursement for miles in and around TDY site? A O4 or O5 may have to manage their time a little better?

    "-car pooling to the gym (no longer are you able to make last minute decisions on when to study, go to the gym, eat, sleep, etc.)"

    On a side note, I would love to know how this relates to COIN. Is it that we are losing experienced mid-level COIN officers because of rental car/milage reimbursment?

    Maybe the huge amount of brain power on this site ( I am a self diagnosed dummy so I am not included) could contribute in other ways then to figure this one out.

    Perhaps my word choice was poor - (agree all your points - as I said in my post, this shouldn't be an issue for MEL 4 students) Agree also - why post this on SWC?
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
    Who is Cavguy?

  7. #27
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Valid points, Niel and Entropy.

    I'd say Ranger 94 also has a point:
    "On a side note, I would love to know how this relates to COIN. Is it that we are losing experienced mid-level COIN officers because of rental car/milage reimbursment?"
    Seems to me that picking the proper forum for a complaint can be mildly important; pick the wrong one and one is likely to get wrong answers -- or raucous catcalls.

    With that pearl of sophomoric wisdom; I'll now cue Steve.

    Steve. Steve. Ste - STEEVE -- SHUT THAT THING OFF SO YOU can hear. Better. Thanks. Uh, you're up...

  8. #28
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    38

    Default Wait, wait, wait.....

    ....before this gets cut off or moved can I do my touge-in-cheek rant about waiting in the long line at Potbelly in Crystal City underground? No? Fine, if you must (with dejected expression).

  9. #29
    Council Member Sargent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    178

    Default

    Selil wrote:

    A couple months back I realized that there were very few people on SWJ/C that have extensive business world experience. Though I'm the age of most of the majors or ltcols I got out of the Marines in 1986, and left law enforcement for corporate in 1993. Most of the academics are traditional academics. I've been all the way to a director level position in a fortune 500 company and I have never once been paid to move.
    I have about 10 years in the private sector, before, after, and during my graduate education. For a lot of it, I was a paralegal, so I like to think of it as being "prior enlisted." I was like a gunny.

    Of course, I worked mostly for law firms and we were treated quite well. The defense consultancy was not quite so.

    Sledge wrote:

    the fact that there are many people who receive substandard care or live in substandard conditions in the Army is not an argument that everyone should suck it up...perhaps the culture should become a culture of taking care of as many people as possible instead of one that wears substandard treatment, equipment, and conditions as a source of pride

    I hope you have tremendous pride that you can get the mission done regardless of what you are given...while that is admirable in most cases; in other cases it means not really getting the mission done, what it probably means is that you did something short of the mission...that significant shortfalls (not immediately apparent) most likely will arise down the line because you were not given appropriate resources...however, that is not your problem, you will have moved onto another job (after receiving your top block) and the long term problem is someone else's...another cultural weakness of the military (short term thinking)
    Two points: First: Historically, the guys at the absolute front line have traditionally suffered shortfalls in just about everything needed to fight a war. An American force has never lost a war because of this. You can get the job done without all the resources needed -- it's the rule of 4/6ths, where you only ever get 4/6ths of what you need to get the job done. Comes from a great quote from Chosin, a battle weary Marine tells a female reporter that the most difficult part of the campaign was trying to get four inches of [bleeeeep] out of 6 inches of clothing. Apparently you can. Yeah, you don't have everything you need -- consider it a tactical problem. To the extent that you need to take care of people, you need to focus on those at the pointy end first. That might mean some scraping for the garrison folks. So be it. (And yes, there remain problems at the pointy end, even in the age of DFAC's Five Flavors.) Second: Did you not notice that there has been a precipitous rise in gas prices? Vanpooling and driving around less sounds sensible. I stay at plenty of crappy motels in the middle of nowhere. When I'm staying there, I walk from Ft. McNair to the metro station/Safeway at night. You can always walk somewhere.

    But then, I'm just a poor grad student, and we pay for all my research and other related trips ourselves -- on a Major's salary (and that's a no-bonus Major in the Marine Corps -- artillery has never, ever received a bonus). So, take it from me, it could be worse. [Imagine a cutesy emoticon here.]

    Cheers,
    Jill

  10. #30
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,444

    Default

    The reactions on this thread are a mix of confusion and incredulity that a field grade officer would complain about such trifles and express such a sense of entitlement. None of us were owed anything more than what it took to get the mission accomplished, plus 4 hours of sleep. Sometimes, it is just amazing to behold what some people complain about.

    This reminds me of a trip that I made to a FOB in OIF III. We only went to drop some stuff off at mortuary affairs and to get warlocks installed, but we happened upon the PX and were in dire need of AA batteries and 9-volts. I hadn't had a shower in 2 months, most of my Soldiers hadn't had one in at least 3 or 4 weeks. We lived on MREs, except for 2 hot meals per week, so when we went into the PX we were looking around like a family on its first visit to Disney World, wide-eyed, in awe of the absurd selection of pop-tarts, chips, condoms, video games, et cetera. One of my Soldiers commented about all of the food. Someone in her IPFU and reflective belt dryly pointed out, "it's usually not this good. They run out of chocolate pudding every other day." That moment has been seared into my memory. I felt like I was in a bad B-rated war movie. I thought it was foolish to complain when living amidst such luxury, variety, and security. But complaining about accomodations here in the US kind of takes the cake.

    Everybody says or types something stupid every now and then. It is best to just acknowledge it and move on. I'm not sure why sledge chooses to keep arguing this. But, it could be worse. At least sledge had the good judgment to use a pseudonym.

  11. #31
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Belly of the beast
    Posts
    2,112

    Default

    123456
    Last edited by selil; 06-29-2008 at 03:13 AM.
    Sam Liles
    Selil Blog
    Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
    The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
    All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.

  12. #32
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default (Thanks for asking that, I'm super curious about it

    but didn't wanta ask... . Weird in my book. Made me wonder if the Army senior NCOS have their Dress Blues over there??? )

  13. #33
    Council Member Mark O'Neill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Posts
    307

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Just a side question: What is up with the reflective PT belts? What purpose do they serve? After a few previous comments I started watching news reports and dang there they were on people in the gym, walking around, etc.. Retro reflective stuff in a combat environment? Ummm. I'm sorry I truly don't understand. I got my melon thumped for not covering everything reflective and it was only training. Bizarre.

    Sorry. that creaking sound is my eyes opening.
    It is my understanding that it is a force protection issue - too many people were being run over on FOBs by lunatic driving. Someone's analysis of the situation obviously suggested that one of the reasons they were being run over was that they were not been seen. We were 'issued' said belts at a Coalition staging base in the Middle East prior to entering Iraq. We never wore them again the minute we left that base.

    Regarding wearing them in a 'combat' environment - the only people I saw wear them off a FOB were SOI / CLC - they were part of the initial uniform / identification kit that many were given. And for the most part I think it worked for them insofar as most coalition soldiers could not help but notice the reflective belts and hence would not immediately reach for a weapon at the sight of an armed Iraqi in civvie clothes dominating a street....

  14. #34
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    DeRidder LA
    Posts
    3,949

    Default

    Regarding wearing them in a 'combat' environment - the only people I saw wear them off a FOB were SOI / CLC - they were part of the initial uniform / identification kit that many were given. And for the most part I think it worked for them insofar as most coalition soldiers could not help but notice the reflective belts and hence would not immediately reach for a weapon at the sight of an armed Iraqi in civvie clothes dominating a street....

    Ahh so they are VS17 panels for host nation forces?

    Reminds me of being lectured in training about finding a place to live where I would blend in--when I got to Africa

    Tom

  15. #35
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Just outside the Beltway
    Posts
    203

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Just a side question: What is up with the reflective PT belts? What purpose do they serve? After a few previous comments I started watching news reports and dang there they were on people in the gym, walking around, etc.. Retro reflective stuff in a combat environment? Ummm. I'm sorry I truly don't understand. I got my melon thumped for not covering everything reflective and it was only training. Bizarre.
    Here's the decision briefing:

    Reflective moments in history . . .

  16. #36
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,444

    Default

    I considered writing a book about my FOB experiences. I even have drafts and a very good outline for how it would be structured. My only reservation about contacting a publisher is that it would be difficult to pull it off without the book reflecting poorly on the military. Therefore, it will probably never leave my hard drive and will only serve as a source of entertainment among my friends and I.

    I never lived on a FOB, but I visited them about every 3 or 4 weeks (thankfully only for hours at a time) during OIF III and passed through them several times in OIF V. EVERY time that I visited a FOB, I discovered some new rule that made absolutely no sense. I am not just talking about a rule that one would regard as a little dumb. I mean rules that you could not make up. By OIF III, I had been in the Army for 6 years, so there were some weird rules that I could anticipate (ground guides, wearing a helmet to drive a HMMWV 50 meters, etc). But the rules at places like LSA Anaconda and FOB Speicher were just out-of-this-world, scratch-your-head, stand-up-and-scream stupid.

    The reflective belt thing was, indeed, a safety measure to prevent people from being run over. It has since become one of those things that is so prevalent on FOBs that all FOB dwellers can relate to it and it is something that they can all laugh about - a shared garrison quirk that they were all subjected. A shared "hardship" I suppose. To some extent, the rule makes some sense. But, then there are other rules...

    My personal favorite was the requirement for an "O-6 memo" in order to drive a HMMWV without a "TC." What O-6 has the time to write someone a memo to drive a HMMWV without a TC? The MP with the flashing blue lights who was doing the traffic stop couldn't answer that question either. And, of course, for those of us who do not live on FOBs, how are we supposed to know about such an obscure rule? He couldn't answer that one either. And whose idea was it to send the "traffic ticket" to my company commander at our patrol base? (It arrived 4 days later, via LOGPAC, with a pallet of track, roadwheels, and two pallets of water. I'm not kidding.)

  17. #37
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    1,177

    Default Disgruntled Captains Voice

    I considered writing a book about my FOB experiences.
    Schmedlap

    Sounds like a wonderful submission to SWJ Magazine.

    My favorite was returning to a FOB for a briefing and seeing that all the road signs were changed to Monopoly names. My boys started calling it FOB Candyland.

    I preferred the patrol base. Although we did not have salsa night and green beans, we felt satisfied knowing that we were actually accomplishing the mission.

    Fact Non Verba

  18. #38
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Honolulu, Hawaii
    Posts
    1,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    I preferred the patrol base. Although we did not have salsa night and green beans, we felt satisfied knowing that we were actually accomplishing the mission.
    Agreed there. It allowed a lot of freedom from the rampant FOB stupidites, like PT belts.

    I remember having the BCT CSM come down to the CO COP and get mad because he saw guys lounging in T-Shirts without a blouse on (inside, and in the common areas outside). He chewed my 1SG for allowing lax uniform discipline, and lectured him that on the FOB there was no working or lounging in T-Shirts only. This was the same CSM who wanted the polar fleece worn under the ACU top. We rolled eyes and complied until he left the FOB for Green Beans. The advantage of living on the COP were able to do what makes sense, and my officers and NCO's maintained combat discipline. (Clean weapons, ready vehicles, etc).

    All that said, not everyone on the FOB is a Fobbit, and everyone has their role. It's easy to throw stones at those who have it less hard, but they do perform vital roles. The vast majority also understand that as well and bend over backwards for the forward deployed, but there are always a few petty tyrants.
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
    Who is Cavguy?

  19. #39
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    1,177

    Default Concur with all CAVGUY

    Just trying to bring a little humor and change the absurdity of this thread so we can move on to more important topics- minor issues like Iraq and Afghanistan instead of relentlessly debating the complexities and hardships of TDY.

    I'll stop rambling now.

    v/r

    Mike

  20. #40
    Council Member jkm_101_fso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kabul
    Posts
    325

    Default FOBs are crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    I considered writing a book about my FOB experiences. I even have drafts and a very good outline for how it would be structured. My only reservation about contacting a publisher is that it would be difficult to pull it off without the book reflecting poorly on the military. Therefore, it will probably never leave my hard drive and will only serve as a source of entertainment among my friends and I.

    I never lived on a FOB, but I visited them about every 3 or 4 weeks (thankfully only for hours at a time) during OIF III and passed through them several times in OIF V. EVERY time that I visited a FOB, I discovered some new rule that made absolutely no sense. I am not just talking about a rule that one would regard as a little dumb. I mean rules that you could not make up. By OIF III, I had been in the Army for 6 years, so there were some weird rules that I could anticipate (ground guides, wearing a helmet to drive a HMMWV 50 meters, etc). But the rules at places like LSA Anaconda and FOB Speicher were just out-of-this-world, scratch-your-head, stand-up-and-scream stupid.

    The reflective belt thing was, indeed, a safety measure to prevent people from being run over. It has since become one of those things that is so prevalent on FOBs that all FOB dwellers can relate to it and it is something that they can all laugh about - a shared garrison quirk that they were all subjected. A shared "hardship" I suppose. To some extent, the rule makes some sense. But, then there are other rules...

    My personal favorite was the requirement for an "O-6 memo" in order to drive a HMMWV without a "TC." What O-6 has the time to write someone a memo to drive a HMMWV without a TC? The MP with the flashing blue lights who was doing the traffic stop couldn't answer that question either. And, of course, for those of us who do not live on FOBs, how are we supposed to know about such an obscure rule? He couldn't answer that one either. And whose idea was it to send the "traffic ticket" to my company commander at our patrol base? (It arrived 4 days later, via LOGPAC, with a pallet of track, roadwheels, and two pallets of water. I'm not kidding.)
    Please publish the book...you could always use your SWC name as the author! I have also regailed many of my rediculous experiences in Iraq on my hard drive, not limited to FOB madness. I also proudly never resided on a FOB; just patrol and fire bases. That has nothing to do with my performance or position, but just luck.
    Per you quote, my first question would be, "WHY ARE THE MPs BEING UTILIZED AS FOB COPS AND NOT OUT IN SECTOR DOING THEIR JOB?" What an absolute waste of a combat asset! A perfect example of Army inefficiency and another reason why Iraq is (was) such a mess.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •