More Piracy Near Somalia

[motorfirebox]

There's no legal fees if there's no investigation. If a PMC shoots up a bunch of pirates, who's going to report it? The shipping company doesn't want it reported because they don't want their insurance premiums to go up. The PMC more than likely has an agreement in place to not report any incidents for the same reason. And the pirates themselves probably wouldn't report it even if they had anyone to report it to--they're the pirates, after all.

[carl]

In one of the articles David linked to, it is mentioned that Russian flagged ships have security (I don't know what kind) on board. If they are attacked by pirates they shoot up and sink the pirate vessel and leave the pirates in the water. No investigation ensues. The article also states that Russian flagged ships are not attacked attacked anymore.

[Stan]

From my post a while back.

The Germans are the first clients and the Estonian Navy confirmed their personnel are already being deployed. These are sort of SEAL teams, not some private company though.

Estonian special forces recently completed training in Germany and will be joining ships crews off Somalia by November, Estonian TV reports

Not too sure who will take the armed crew members aboard, but looks like a step in the right direction.

Estonian Public Broadcasting in English

[motorfirebox]

Someone earlier asked about solutions, and I didn't remember to reply until now. The solution I would propose would be to pump more money and training into the burgeoning Somali navy, building it from a small force of marines into an actual navy--or, rather, a coast guard--with some level of blue water capability. Help them fight piracy, but also help them fight the illegal fishing and dumping operations which are a major driver behind the piracy. Simultaneously, start cracking down on illegal fishing and especially illegal dumping ourselves. People eat this stuff, for chrissake, we shouldn't be okay with nuclear fish.

Not a perfect solution, not a total solution, but a start and something that has a much better chance of working than simply shooting pirates.

[jmm99]

Somali Navy Admiral Optimistic about Pirate Fight; but that was in Jan 2010.

On the other hand, from Dec 2010, another voice - of pessimism, Does Somalia’s New Pirate-Fighting Militia Stand a Chance? (original source "Wired"):

Multi-billion-dollar warships, Navy SEAL snipers, Marine assault teams, mercenaries, Reaper drones, sonic beam guns and even improvised firebombs hurled by desperate fishermen: the world has tried everything short of a full-scale invasion to beat Somali pirates. The newest idea is a local pirate-fighting militia. But it’s doubtful that this tactic will be much more successful than the last half-dozen. ... (more in article).

Regards

Mike

[JMA]

Somali Navy Admiral Optimistic about Pirate Fight; but that was in Jan 2010.

On the other hand, from Dec 2010, another voice - of pessimism, Does Somalia’s New Pirate-Fighting Militia Stand a Chance? (original source "Wired"):

Regards

Mike

The obvious solution stares one in the face.

Again I suggest that this be recorded as the best solution but due to diplomatic sensitivities and gutless political weakness is not on the table.

[motorfirebox]

I'm not yet willing to equate an aversion to mass slaughter with gutless political weakness. The gutless political weakness was most flagrantly displayed back in 2006, when we sent in Ethiopia to break the back of the IUC.

[carl]

I'm not yet willing to equate an aversion to mass slaughter with gutless political weakness. The gutless political weakness was most flagrantly displayed back in 2006, when we sent in Ethiopia to break the back of the IUC.

What we are talking about here isn't mass slaughter, it is selective slaughter, confined to some rapacious Somali teenagers on little boats out at sea. The advantage of that is it avoids going onto the shore where there are more innocent people around to get caught in a cross fire. The other advantage is the rapacious Somali teenagers are concentrated in small area, the boat, so you don't have to chase them hither and thither.

Unwillingness to do that is simple fecklessness. I think shooting bunches of pirates at sea would do wonders to reduce and maybe almost eliminate piracy in the area. You do not. We disagree.

I still think it interesting that non-western countries seem to be the ones that are beginning to take the hard actions needed. The western countries mostly fret.

[motorfirebox]

Er, no. I'm not opposed to engaging pirates who are engaged in piracy. I'm not even opposed to engaging pirates on shore. I'm opposed to viewing the engagement of pirates as a whole solution. And thus far, we haven't been all that reticent about engaging pirates, at least at sea.

I find it fairly uninformed to talk about "rapacious Somali teenagers". Not that they don't exist, and in great numbers, but we ourselves--the western countries, specifically the US--bear a large part of the blame for their proliferation. I hate to keep harping on it (lies, it's one of my favorite things to bitch about), but the last time Somalia had any success in forming a civilized society, we smashed it. It's lunacy to expect Somalia as a whole to take any steps to restrain the worst impulses of its citizens, considering the war we foisted on them as a direct result of their most recent attempt to do so. If you spank your kid when he's good, and you spank your kid when he's bad, he's not going to bother trying to be good for long.

[JMA]

I'm not yet willing to equate an aversion to mass slaughter with gutless political weakness. The gutless political weakness was most flagrantly displayed back in 2006, when we sent in Ethiopia to break the back of the IUC.

Mass slaughter? Define mass in this context please.

[carl]

Motorfirebox:

First off, how did you come up with that name? It is kind of interesting as I imagine is the story behind it.

I am interested in the immediate problem at hand, murderous Somali teenagers shooting people, kidnapping them and stealing their things. The immediate solution to that immediate problem is shooting said teenagers, sinking their boats and continuing to do so until they figure pirating isn't really so much fun. That puts an end to the violence (no more pirates, no more shooting pirates) and the whole cloth solutions can be started. As mentioned by Bill Moore, I think, you have to stop the shooting first before you can start effective development.

We haven't been doing that much, hardly at all. It is still big news when one or two pirates dies by the sword at sea. When it doesn't make the news at all because it has become routine, then the thing will stop; and then it won't make the news because it has stopped. If there is a pack of coyotes beleaguering your sheep, you don't just drop one, almost hit one then throw up your hands and wail that there is nothing you can do; you keep dropping them till they are all gone. (please don't come back with the coyotes from the next county will come over, these analogies can only take so much strain)

You mentioned starving fishermen. I don't know that much about the area in the area that used to be Somalia where all this started, but most of the starvation I've read about in the area that used to be Somalia was caused by armed groups of murderous Somali teenagers (they make another appearance) stealing food from other Somalis. My information is probably dated though. I would note that most of the pirates identified, to my knowledge, have been teens or men in their early 20s, about what you would expect in brigands. There don't seem to be many mature men who are heads of families righting the wrong by stealing the M.V. Itinerant and crew and ransoming it for $50 million.

There are lots of organizations who would be willing to go to the area that used to be Somalia to provide whatever help you care to name. I read they don't because it is too blinking dangerous. They operate in other completely confused areas of Africa, but not in the area that used to be Somalia. That may have something to do with the nature of the people who live in that area.

You mention building up the Somali naval forces. That is a grand idea. I think the first order of business would be to make a Somalia out of the area that used to be Somalia. That is a hard thing that nobody seems to have the stomach for, except the Ugandans. They are trying at least, and maybe the Burundians too, I think they are up there with the Ugandans. But in lieu of that, we should build up the Somaliland naval forces. There might be a chance there. Puntland, not so much.

I really don't care about what grave policy errors we made in the past concerning the area that used to be Somalia. As I said above, I am concerned about here and now. Therefore, I symbolically scourge the west, and the US most of all (naturally), for our past sins in the area that used to be Somalia. Now can we get to shooting some pirates and making the lives of innocent mariners a little easier?

Regarding this statement-"If you spank your kid when he's good, and you spank your kid when he's bad, he's not going to bother trying to be good for long. " You do what you want with your kid. But when you are driving down the distant interstate and some kid who lives next to it tries to carjack you, I concede your right to smite him a mighty blow regardless of what he says his circumstances are. (I hope I didn't strain that analogy beyond the breaking point.)

[carl]

Here is a link to the story reporting the 4 Americans on board the pirated boat Quest were killed.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/22/fo...ec1_lnk3|45602

[Bob's World]

This may well be a tactical error that will bring strategic consequences. Americans are funny like that.

[motorfirebox]

Mass slaughter? Define mass in this context please.

Killing enough Somalis to dissuade piracy.

Motorfirebox:
First off, how did you come up with that name? It is kind of interesting as I imagine is the story behind it.

I came up with it around the time Hackers came out. That movie impressed on me the need to have a cool handle on the Internet, or else nobody would take me seriously. It's all in the name!

I am interested in the immediate problem at hand, murderous Somali teenagers shooting people, kidnapping them and stealing their things. The immediate solution to that immediate problem is shooting said teenagers, sinking their boats and continuing to do so until they figure pirating isn't really so much fun. That puts an end to the violence (no more pirates, no more shooting pirates) and the whole cloth solutions can be started. As mentioned by Bill Moore, I think, you have to stop the shooting first before you can start effective development.

We haven't been doing that much, hardly at all. It is still big news when one or two pirates dies by the sword at sea. When it doesn't make the news at all because it has become routine, then the thing will stop; and then it won't make the news because it has stopped. If there is a pack of coyotes beleaguering your sheep, you don't just drop one, almost hit one then throw up your hands and wail that there is nothing you can do; you keep dropping them till they are all gone. (please don't come back with the coyotes from the next county will come over, these analogies can only take so much strain)

You mentioned starving fishermen. I don't know that much about the area in the area that used to be Somalia where all this started, but most of the starvation I've read about in the area that used to be Somalia was caused by armed groups of murderous Somali teenagers (they make another appearance) stealing food from other Somalis. My information is probably dated though. I would note that most of the pirates identified, to my knowledge, have been teens or men in their early 20s, about what you would expect in brigands. There don't seem to be many mature men who are heads of families righting the wrong by stealing the M.V. Itinerant and crew and ransoming it for $50 million.

A few things. Most of the reports I've read have indicated that shooting people is generally a last resort. For the number of pirate attacks over the past few years, there have been a very low number of casualties. So I'm not sure it's all that fair to call these guys "murderous", as if they're just running around looking for people to kill. With the amount of money involved in these operations, I doubt the actually murderous teenagers are ever allowed to be pirates by their fellow ex-fishermen.

I don't view piracy as the immediate problem. The piracy has been going on for something approaching three decades, now. The illegal fishing and dumping seems to be younger by ten to twenty years, and as I've said many times (and it's not just me--almost any serious examination of the issue you care to study says the same thing), seems to be responsible for the recent increase in incidents. The only thing that's been shown to effectively decrease incidents of piracy is the increase of law and order.

Killing pirates to reduce piracy is flat out a non-starter. This is Somalia. I don't think you're taking into account the amount of violence we would have to bring to the area to even get noticed, much less actually have an effect on the behavior of the population at large. I mean, read about what's going on there--this is a serious moneymaker for these people, and while a lot of the financing goes to international financiers, another large portion goes directly to the villages from which the pirates stage their operations. They're not going to stop because we kill a few of their shooters. They're not even going to stop because we kill a lot of their shooters--again, this is Somalia. It's not like they're going to run out.

Piracy in Somalia is a political issue. It's a social issue. Aside from the issue of who is to blame for the rise in piracy, any study of the area that consists of more than a quick glance at the actual incidents of piracy will reveal that there's more to the problem than dudes in need of being shot.

There are lots of organizations who would be willing to go to the area that used to be Somalia to provide whatever help you care to name. I read they don't because it is too blinking dangerous. They operate in other completely confused areas of Africa, but not in the area that used to be Somalia. That may have something to do with the nature of the people who live in that area.

Which, as I said, makes shooting people the least likely course of action to effect change. In a room full of shouting people, you're not likely to make yourself heard by trying to outshout them. If we were to try to outshout (outshoot) Somalia, we would have to kill hundreds of thousands of people. Like, high hundreds. Anything less would just spawn more al Shabaabs. I won't even get into the effects that would have on our international relations--I'm just going to leave it there: killing hundreds of thousands of people to save a few million bucks.

You mention building up the Somali naval forces. That is a grand idea. I think the first order of business would be to make a Somalia out of the area that used to be Somalia. That is a hard thing that nobody seems to have the stomach for, except the Ugandans. They are trying at least, and maybe the Burundians too, I think they are up there with the Ugandans. But in lieu of that, we should build up the Somaliland naval forces. There might be a chance there. Puntland, not so much.

I have a minor quibble with that. Puntland is actually pretty swank by Somali standards. They have a functioning government, including an education system. And since it's where the majority of the pirate attacks come from anyway, that's where I'd start. Give the pirates something to do besides pirate and the attacks will drop.

I really don't care about what grave policy errors we made in the past concerning the area that used to be Somalia. As I said above, I am concerned about here and now. Therefore, I symbolically scourge the west, and the US most of all (naturally), for our past sins in the area that used to be Somalia. Now can we get to shooting some pirates and making the lives of innocent mariners a little easier?

Regarding this statement-"If you spank your kid when he's good, and you spank your kid when he's bad, he's not going to bother trying to be good for long. " You do what you want with your kid. But when you are driving down the distant interstate and some kid who lives next to it tries to carjack you, I concede your right to smite him a mighty blow regardless of what he says his circumstances are. (I hope I didn't strain that analogy beyond the breaking point.)

Our past sins are relevant because they affect our expectations for the region. A lot of the thinking about Somalia tends to run along the lines of "Somalia would be better off is Somalis stopped being so violent." That is demonstrably untrue--Somalis tried not being so violent, and they got invaded by Ethiopia for their troubles. This basically means that Somalis are never going to stop being so violent on their own in the forseeable future. Since we're the ones that dissuaded them from not being violent, it seems reasonable that the responsibility for giving Somalis reasons to stop being violent falls on us.

Again, I'm not against taking action against pirates who are presently engaged in piracy. But we simply can't shoot enough pirates to stop the epidemic without a) spending more than the pirates take in ransom in the first place, and b) doing some truly horrific things.

Here is a link to the story reporting the 4 Americans on board the pirated boat Quest were killed.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/22/fo...ec1_lnk3|45602

Annnnnd there goes any possibility of us doing something besides shooting pirates. Nice one, Somalia.

[JMA]

Killing enough Somalis to dissuade piracy

Well I guess you just threw mass in for effect.

I am a great believer in the persuasive power of one well targeted cruise missile. The brute force and ignorance approach may work but tends to leave a nasty taste in ones mouth... and some people have long memories.

First I would go after the money men in Europe (London and Holland I believe) then the ones in Kenya and Somalia itself. Then I would roll up the trigger men along the coast and/or out to sea.

I would suggest you give the CIA 6 months to wrap it all up otherwise you fire the director and ten of his top goons and hand the job over to the Marines.

[Stan]

Killing enough Somalis to dissuade piracy.

I don't view piracy as the immediate problem. The piracy has been going on for something approaching three decades, now. The illegal fishing and dumping seems to be younger by ten to twenty years, and as I've said many times (and it's not just me--almost any serious examination of the issue you care to study says the same thing), seems to be responsible for the recent increase in incidents. The only thing that's been shown to effectively decrease incidents of piracy is the increase of law and order.

Forgive my cutting in this late in the game, but I have to wonder just what your background and experience with Sub-Sahara is.

Exactly how is this aging problem driven by politics in a country with literally no literacy rate and something like one percent of the population capable of using the internet (yet alone feed their families)?

I´ve also tried to find some credible source that clearly links illegal fishing and chemical dumping with our current piracy problems. There are certainly millions of bloggers with opinions, but some UN, USG or European think tank that concluded we are at the root of piracy for not restoring order to the Somali coast?

During the decade I served in 11 different countries I noticed one common denominator that fits herein: Piracy – whether at sea or on the freeway – is a means to an end and the easy way out. They have only just begun to kill and will certainly learn to perform far worse.

The Africans I know and taught know no boundaries. Killing and raping—beginning at home -- is inherent to the region. If we refuse to play by the rules in their sandbox, then we would be better off not spouting our Bravo Sierra, and staying out of the region.

[tequila]

First I would go after the money men in Europe (London and Holland I believe) then the ones in Kenya and Somalia itself. Then I would roll up the trigger men along the coast and/or out to sea.

I agree with this approach. Piracy has to be approached as what it is - an international criminal enterprise, not entirely dissimilar to drug cartels. The shooters are not in control on the high seas any more than the cartel gunmen in Juarez or gang members in Brooklyn - they are minimum-wage employees. Multimillion dollar ransoms are not being dropped off in some blasted-out house in Mogadishu - they are being transferred to Swiss accounts.

[jmm99]

from JMA
I would suggest you give the CIA 6 months to wrap it all up otherwise you fire the director and ten of his top goons and hand the job over to the Marines.

I didn't realize that South Africa had a currently functioning Marine Corps.



Mike

[motorfirebox]

Well I guess you just threw mass in for effect.

I am a great believer in the persuasive power of one well targeted cruise missile. The brute force and ignorance approach may work but tends to leave a nasty taste in ones mouth... and some people have long memories.

First I would go after the money men in Europe (London and Holland I believe) then the ones in Kenya and Somalia itself. Then I would roll up the trigger men along the coast and/or out to sea.

I would suggest you give the CIA 6 months to wrap it all up otherwise you fire the director and ten of his top goons and hand the job over to the Marines.

If it were that easy it would be done by now. The idea we don't have the political will to unleash the CIA, in an era where Gitmo is still in full operation, is not one that passes the smell test. As for cruise missiles, these guys operate out of local villages. There's going to be significant collateral damage no matter how well-targeted the missile is. I don't think blowing up one of the more prosperous regions in Somalia is the key to reducing piracy.

Forgive my cutting in this late in the game, but I have to wonder just what your background and experience with Sub-Sahara is.

I claim no experience. I present evidence which you are free to discuss, disregard, or accept.

Exactly how is this aging problem driven by politics in a country with literally no literacy rate and something like one percent of the population capable of using the internet (yet alone feed their families)?

I said that it's a political problem, not that it's a problem of internal Somali politics. It's a problem of international politics as they related to Somalia.

I´ve also tried to find some credible source that clearly links illegal fishing and chemical dumping with our current piracy problems. There are certainly millions of bloggers with opinions, but some UN, USG or European think tank that concluded we are at the root of piracy for not restoring order to the Somali coast?

You mean aside from the Deputy Prime Minister of Somalia, speaking at a UN conference on Somali piracy? How about a statement from UN General Assembly President Ali Abdussalam Treki?

During the decade I served in 11 different countries I noticed one common denominator that fits herein: Piracy – whether at sea or on the freeway – is a means to an end and the easy way out. They have only just begun to kill and will certainly learn to perform far worse.

The Africans I know and taught know no boundaries. Killing and raping—beginning at home -- is inherent to the region. If we refuse to play by the rules in their sandbox, then we would be better off not spouting our Bravo Sierra, and staying out of the region.

Then perhaps we should help and encourage them to build a government which will dissuade and prevent such activity.

[carl]

Then perhaps we should help and encourage them to build a government which will dissuade and prevent such activity.

I appreciate your good will in approaching this problem, but when you respond like this to a genuine Africa hand like Stan explaining the way things are over there, you can't be judged as anything but Manhattan cocktail party naive.

TIA. This is Africa. It isn't just a line in a movie, it really means something. Stan explained it. It really is.

All is moot now though. As Mr. Jones said, Americans will not like this.

One thing I am thoroughly puzzled by, apparently the pirates took a shot at an American destroyer with an RPG. Those guys are not only evil but terminally stupid.