More Piracy Near Somalia

[jmm99]

re: merchant ships (excluding warships); some answers would have to be averages:

1. US-flagged vessels (number & tonnage) - total

2. US-flagged vessels (number & tonnage) not on Great Lakes

3. US-flagged vessels (number & tonnage) on India Ocean

4. US-flagged vessels (number & tonnage) in "Somali Piracy Zone"

5. US-flagged vessels (number & tonnage) attacked by Somali pirates

6. US-flagged vessels (number & tonnage) seized by Somali pirates

7. US-flagged vessels (number & tonnage) still held by Somali pirates

Next set of questions - same 7, but for All-World flagged vessels

Make sure you count the 50+ flagged by Outer Mongolia.

Ran into that one while looking generally at flagged vessels. I didn't find answers to my questions. I probably was not looking in the right places.

TIA

Mike

[carl]

Motorfirebox:

I wouldn't say my position is '"I don't care how Somalis live, or don't, so long as they leave us alone."' as much as it is "I don't care how the pirates operating from the coast of the area that used to be Somalia live, or don't, so long as they leave us alone, the us to include all innocent seafarers sailing the oceans." That is a bit more precise. Of course, once they stop being pirates they fall out of the "I don't care" class, unless they then enter the yut gun for hire class. I don't care about that class either.

Sure have been a lot of people telling me I'm an ignorant fellow lately. Must be something to it.

You might note the Asphalt Venture was taken southeast of Dar Es Salam, a long way from the area that used to be Somalia. The pirates also welshed on the deal to give back all the crewman after receiving the money. This is contrary to the pirate's code, at least as that code is interpreted by the writers of "Pirates of the Caribbean."

Ray:

That link you provided has a lot of even more interesting links attached to it. Also, how ruthless do you think the Indian navy is prepared to get?

[M-A Lagrange]

Carl, Motorfirebox:

I believe you 2 are talking about 2 different things at the moment.
One is talking of the burden of pirates and the fact that piracy and pirates caught should be treaten as a criminal case.
The other one is talking about the need to mitigate piracy by providing efficient support to the inprocess to be born government of Somalia. This by providing economical opportunities to the population in land so they will not turn to piracy.

Both are right, IMO. You cannot deal with pirate problematic in just looking at one angle only. Especially as pirates start to feel strong enough to threat States as India, France and US... (The list starts to be long).

The question here is rather are the somali interested and aren't they already included in the formal/informal economy? And secondly how to strike both pirates on sea and blackeconomy they live from.

And finally, I'm sorry but mortality/starvation in Somalia is a long (boring) debat with sometimes weird decisions taken from all sides. I witnessed parents letting their children starve so they could join a nutrition program and get free food and I witnessed also stupid expats saying: who said somali deserve SPHERE standarts humanitarian aid...

[davidbfpo]

JMM,

Without using Google I would suggest Lloyds List and the International Maritime Bureau (IMB), may have the answers in their publications.

[Entropy]

JMM,

The US Coast Guard keeps track of all US-flagges ships above 5 tons. You can order a complete list here.

You can do some very limited queries of the database here.

You can track vessels here in NRT via the AIS system, but there are important caveats - specifically you only get data on ships that are near the shore and in range of an AIS receiver that's hooked into the system. AIS can be tracked by satellite but, alas, that service is generally only available to governments and corporations with deep pockets. I don't know of any other sources that provide live locations for all US merchant vessels.

Here's the US DOT site on Somalia piracy with a lot of good links.

A current list of pirated vessels can be found here. (There are no US Flagged vessels currently on the list).

Hope that helps.

[motorfirebox]

One is talking of the burden of pirates and the fact that piracy and pirates caught should be treaten as a criminal case.
The other one is talking about the need to mitigate piracy by providing efficient support to the inprocess to be born government of Somalia. This by providing economical opportunities to the population in land so they will not turn to piracy.

I've never denied the necessity of dealing with acts of piracy. What I argue is that acts of piracy do not negate other facets of the problem.

I wouldn't say my position is '"I don't care how Somalis live, or don't, so long as they leave us alone."' as much as it is "I don't care how the pirates operating from the coast of the area that used to be Somalia live, or don't, so long as they leave us alone, the us to include all innocent seafarers sailing the oceans."

To state it in such terms is to ignore how the current piracy boom got started in the first place. Your position requires you to believe that it's okay for some groups (read: the US) to break the rules, but as soon as anyone else breaks the rules, we get to shoot them--because the rules say so! You can't completely shred the fabric of civilized society and then expect people to act civilized.

[carl]

To state it in such terms is to ignore how the current piracy boom got started in the first place. Your position requires you to believe that it's okay for some groups (read: the US) to break the rules, but as soon as anyone else breaks the rules, we get to shoot them--because the rules say so! You can't completely shred the fabric of civilized society and then expect people to act civilized.

How about this. We will convene a universal conference to ultimately determine who did what to whom when. It will also determine what penalties are to be exacted and how they will be divided up. Then it will enforce its findings and establish equitable arrangements to maintain the justice of the situation.

If, when all that is successfully completed, say 6 weeks from now, some yuts from the coast of the area that used to be Somalia sail out to sea to steal ships and kidnap mariners, can we then take decisive "TIA" type action against them?

[jmm99]

to David and Entropy - if one wants intelligent answers, ask and some smart intelligence folks at SWC will respond

My purpose in asking was to get some solid facts that might suggest some policy and legal opinions re: US involvement in dealing with Somali piracy.

To an Old Dinosaur, an attack on an American flagged vessel (or on an American embassy) is the same as an attack on the United States. Of course, to the New Mammals, ain't no such thing under Customary International Humanitarian Law; and remember Customary International Human Rights Law, etc., etc.

I'm probably a relic from the Clipper Ship Era, with a little bit of David Porter (the Elder) in the background. Piracy is also bad for business - but, whose business ?

Again, guys, thank you for the leads.

Regards

Mike

[M-A Lagrange]

I've never denied the necessity of dealing with acts of piracy. What I argue is that acts of piracy do not negate other facets of the problem.

Ok, then what do you propose that is already being done by the humanitarian community and the international community?

Do the donors have to flood the place with more money?
Do the international community have to reinforce the engagements to provide military support to the somali government?
Does AU members have to set a real Eastern Africa force (as it is in the treaty) and then occupy Somalia?
Do the neighbouring countries have to send back the refugees?
Do Ethiopia have to invide again somalia with a back up from Uganda?

The problematic is not just saying you have to do something in land, it's to propose some thing on the other facets. And to come with a feasible response which is not: western powers will settle the problem. As there is also a responsability from the somalian community (not all, and most a small numbers of rich merchants, politicians and small villages).
The "pirate council" threats India (or France and Kenya before) because those countries take police action against piracy. This means they feel/think piracy is acceptable and other countries should let them be pirates. Or they have another agenda behind.

[JMA]

Ok, then what do you propose that is already being done by the humanitarian community and the international community?

Do the donors have to flood the place with more money?
Do the international community have to reinforce the engagements to provide military support to the somali government?
Does AU members have to set a real Eastern Africa force (as it is in the treaty) and then occupy Somalia?
Do the neighbouring countries have to send back the refugees?
Do Ethiopia have to invide again somalia with a back up from Uganda?

The problematic is not just saying you have to do something in land, it's to propose some thing on the other facets. And to come with a feasible response which is not: western powers will settle the problem. As there is also a responsability from the somalian community (not all, and most a small numbers of rich merchants, politicians and small villages).
The "pirate council" threats India (or France and Kenya before) because those countries take police action against piracy. This means they feel/think piracy is acceptable and other countries should let them be pirates. Or they have another agenda behind.

With the collapse of the state in Somalia 1991 it is acknowledged that illegal dumping of hazardous waste off the coast of Somalia as well as illegal fishing took place.

At this point we should remember this well known quote of Samuel Johnson - "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"

So in response to dumping and poaching of their fishing resources the long-suffering patriots/pirates/thieves/thugs/crooks/gangsters (pick the one you like best) of Somalia hijacked/detained/impounded (pick the one you like best) the MV Faina, a Ukrainian ship in 2008 and demanded a ransom/reparation (pick the one you like best) of $8m. This money the world was told was to go towards cleaning up the waste dumping areas.

So over the following years the world has seen Somali patriots/pirates/thieves/thugs/crooks/gangsters (pick the one you like best) from all over the country and the world rallying to the cause of helping to collect these "reparations" to clean up the coast line and protect the fish stocks.

Secretive people these Somalis. Keeping the details of the clean-up program and its cost close to their chest. Don't blame them, do you?

[Stan]

Do the donors have to flood the place with more money?
Do the international community have to reinforce the engagements to provide military support to the somali government?
Does AU members have to set a real Eastern Africa force (as it is in the treaty) and then occupy Somalia?
Do the neighbouring countries have to send back the refugees?
Do Ethiopia have to invide again somalia with a back up from Uganda?

M-A,
That looks like a list from the Clinton era when I was in Zaire/Rwanda.
Funny, we tried to answer those questions from the ground and they sent us winter baby clothes and dried biscuits

Interesting how most people rarely get what it means to manage a humanitarian effort in Africa at the behest of the current administration. Once one has had a taste of that Bravo Sierra.... Well

[motorfirebox]

How about this. We will convene a universal conference to ultimately determine who did what to whom when. It will also determine what penalties are to be exacted and how they will be divided up. Then it will enforce its findings and establish equitable arrangements to maintain the justice of the situation.

If, when all that is successfully completed, say 6 weeks from now, some yuts from the coast of the area that used to be Somalia sail out to sea to steal ships and kidnap mariners, can we then take decisive "TIA" type action against them?

You're replacing one extreme with another, more fantastic extreme. I don't see how that's helpful, even as facetiousness.

Ok, then what do you propose that is already being done by the humanitarian community and the international community?

Do the donors have to flood the place with more money?
Do the international community have to reinforce the engagements to provide military support to the somali government?
Does AU members have to set a real Eastern Africa force (as it is in the treaty) and then occupy Somalia?
Do the neighbouring countries have to send back the refugees?
Do Ethiopia have to invide again somalia with a back up from Uganda?

The problematic is not just saying you have to do something in land, it's to propose some thing on the other facets. And to come with a feasible response which is not: western powers will settle the problem. As there is also a responsability from the somalian community (not all, and most a small numbers of rich merchants, politicians and small villages).
The "pirate council" threats India (or France and Kenya before) because those countries take police action against piracy. This means they feel/think piracy is acceptable and other countries should let them be pirates. Or they have another agenda behind.

Another invasion is the exact opposite of what I'd propose. The basic problem is that we've destroyed the concept of legitimate government in Somalia. A large part of that is due to unavoidable corruption, but another factor that weighs heavily is that when Somalia did try to put together a real government of their own, we punished them for it with foreign invasion. How do we begin to build or rebuild the concept of legitimate government? I don't have a roadmap, but I suspect it starts with treating the area as a legitimate concern. If Somalia has international issues like unlicensed foreign fishing and illegal waste dumping, we deal with those issues.

[M-A Lagrange]

Another invasion is the exact opposite of what I'd propose. The basic problem is that we've destroyed the concept of legitimate government in Somalia. A large part of that is due to unavoidable corruption, but another factor that weighs heavily is that when Somalia did try to put together a real government of their own, we punished them for it with foreign invasion. How do we begin to build or rebuild the concept of legitimate government? I don't have a roadmap, but I suspect it starts with treating the area as a legitimate concern. If Somalia has international issues like unlicensed foreign fishing and illegal waste dumping, we deal with those issues.

Well, I can sense that you were in favor of the islamic tribunals and then that al shabab are now the legitimate government or am I wrong?

Secondly, you are just asking to agree with the pirates' demande and comply with it not providing any tracks for ending piracy, which is the issue.

Thirdly, legitimate government? what does that mean for you. If it goes through democratic process then it is to be discuss but not in Dar es Salam or Nairobi. If it's a governement imposed by force then it's as illegitimate as any invasion and power put in place by force.
This probably means people in power that none of all somali clan will accept. But will have to respect and obey, who ever they are and who ever business they disrupt. The all idea of necessity of consensus is just a cover to keep the situation as it is and not go forward most of the time.

Finally, the first step of any road map will go by ending piracy, I believe.

[tequila]

Well, I can sense that you were in favor of the islamic tribunals and then that al shabab are now the legitimate government or am I wrong?

We tend to forget that the Islamic Courts Union and al-Shabaab were not one and the same.

Who was the head of the ICU at the time of the Ethiopian invasion? Right, Sharif Sheikh Ahmed.

Who is the current recognized President of Somalia, head of the Transitional Federal Government? Sharif Sheikh Ahmed.

[M-A Lagrange]

We tend to forget that the Islamic Courts Union and al-Shabaab were not one and the same.

Who was the head of the ICU at the time of the Ethiopian invasion? Right, Sharif Sheikh Ahmed.

Who is the current recognized President of Somalia, head of the Transitional Federal Government? Sharif Sheikh Ahmed.

Tequila,

You are wright to remind who is the actual president of somali transitional government.
My point was rather by recognising pirates claims as genuine Motorfirebox was suggesting that only powers out of the "government" are legitimate as pirates do not recognise mogadisho government as legitimate. Which was also the ICU claim in their time. So we end up in a dead end.

[motorfirebox]

Well, I can sense that you were in favor of the islamic tribunals and then that al shabab are now the legitimate government or am I wrong?

As tequila pointed out, the ICU and al Shabaab are two different entities.

Secondly, you are just asking to agree with the pirates' demande and comply with it not providing any tracks for ending piracy, which is the issue.

I suppose that's one way of looking at what I'm advocating. Another way of looking at it is that I'm proposing more permanent solutions to piracy in the region--solutions based on past success.

Thirdly, legitimate government? what does that mean for you. If it goes through democratic process then it is to be discuss but not in Dar es Salam or Nairobi. If it's a governement imposed by force then it's as illegitimate as any invasion and power put in place by force.
This probably means people in power that none of all somali clan will accept. But will have to respect and obey, who ever they are and who ever business they disrupt. The all idea of necessity of consensus is just a cover to keep the situation as it is and not go forward most of the time.

Well, first, you can't name a single government that isn't kept in place by some amount of force. In the US, for instance, there are those who want to overthrow the federal government; we just arrested a couple of them a few months back for attempting to place an entire courthouse under "citizen's arrest".

My definition of legitimate government in this case is pretty stripped-down: a government that shows concern for the welfare of its constituents. al Shabaab, it should be noted, doesn't meet that criteria.

Finally, the first step of any road map will go by ending piracy, I believe.

Why? Aside from the possibility of provoking another invasion--and, as I've noted, spontaneously forming a system of justice, building schools, and providing medical care also provoked an invasion--what are the pirates doing that is harmful to the society of Somalia?

[Stan]

Didn't you just answer your own question? If the pirates are not harmful to the society in Somalia how could we possibly hope to form a system of justice, why would we build schools (if all the kids are going to end up being uneducated pirates) and what use is there in providing medical care to people who will eventually be shot and killed while conducting illegal acts at sea or on the shore.

I don't get your last comment.

Finally, the first step of any road map will go by ending piracy, I believe.

Why? Aside from the possibility of provoking another invasion--and, as I've noted, spontaneously forming a system of justice, building schools, and providing medical care also provoked an invasion--what are the pirates doing that is harmful to the society of Somalia?

[davidbfpo]

Motorfirebox,

A good question and I expect it may have appeared before here, though not asked so directly.

My initial reaction is their activity is negative for two reasons. First, criminal activity which is successful tends to lead to more people become involved and local order breaks down. I speculate that the role of clan elders, previously the key factor in Somali society, is further eroded and as most pirates are from the younger generation further pressures on survival of tradition mount.

Secondly, the impact on the outside world. For a number of reasons, which pre-date piracy, even the collapse of governance and famine, Somalia is not a place that gets help and piracy magnifies that.

Then a local factor - here in the UK - the flow of genuine ethnic Somalis into the UK can cause its own problems and to date IMHO has shown few gains for society. Piracy and the steady slide into oblivion in Somali (not Somaliland) contributes to the country emptying and dying. Sad, but true.

[M-A Lagrange]

Motorfirebox:

I believe we are in a dead end as Somalia is not alone in this world. The question is not what do the pirates do to Somalia that harms Somalia but rather do the pirates do to others that harms Somalia.

If the solution is to accept that somali have the right to do what ever they want because they are somali... Then it just does not work. (It might seems abrupt but I met too many somali who just gave that answer, sorry)

At some point Somalia has to integrate in global system. Or, it will be global system that will integrate it and it sure will not be pleasant.

You said past success... Then give exemple of sustainable solution for Somalia. As far as I know, nothing has been able to sustain without external funding, including islamic welfare societies, in the past 20 years.

And finally, you say WE. Please could you expose who that WE is?

[carl]

--what are the pirates doing that is harmful to the society of Somalia?

Now there is a philosophy to build an enduring legal tradition upon-if it doesn't hurt me or mine, it's ok.