All matters MRAP JLTV (merged thread)

[PsJÄÄK Korte]

I have to ask what is difference between MRAP and wheeled APC? Because despite googling I am still a little puzzled.

[Morgan]

To Korte....

I believe the primary difference between wheeled APCs and MRAPs is the former is designed to protect troops from shrapnel and small arms fire (SAF) while the latter does that PLUS protects from IEDs (up to a point).

[Ken White]

I have to ask what is difference between MRAP and wheeled APC? Because despite googling I am still a little puzzled.

Plus a major difference in tactical mobility. The wheeled APC is designed to provide a blend of mobility and protection generally for 8 to 15 troops and tilted toward mobility while the MRAP is designed to provide protection, period. Mobility is almost an afterthought for most of them. Most MRAPs also carry fewer people, 4 to 10 being the norm with the mean hovering at about 6. They do provide slightly better situational awareness by having more windows than do wheeled APCs...

[Firn]

I have to ask what is difference between MRAP and wheeled APC? Because despite googling I am still a little puzzled.

It is all very easy.

Tanks are an essential element of armed maneuver warfare. Yet, even this high-value, powerful weapon remains vulnerable to infantry anti-tank tactics especially in urban or confined environments. Hence, infantry accompany tanks to assist in suppressing possible anti-tank action.

During the Second World War, the Soviet tacticians incorporated joint infantry and tank attacks against German forces, both serving in roles to protect the other. Performance was less than desirable as infantry lacked the armored protection and rapid mobility of the tank, and thus unarmoured troops were vulnerable to enemy fire. This led to employment of armoured infantry carriage vehicles known as APCs which overcame these shortcomings.(Perrett 1987:65)

After the war, Soviet military analysed the high infantry casualty rate of combined infantry-tank attacks and concluded the lack of APCs were a major cause. This vulnerability in maneuver warfare was given high priority to remedy. The Soviet military industrial complex had its own designs, Lend-Lease vehicles such as the M3 Half-track and newly acquired German SdKfz 251 to serve as reference. (Perrett 1987:65)

The BTR-152 was one of the first Soviet armoured infantry vehicle after the Second World War. It was developed from November 1946 at ZiS plant by a team (it included K. M. Androsow, A. P. Pietrenko, W. F. Rodionow and P. P. Czerniajew)[1] led by B. M. Fitterman. The first two prototypes were completed in May 1947 and were followed by three experimental series. The vehicle was adopted by the Soviet Army on 24 March 1950. The vehicle was based on the existing ZiS-151 truck chassis. Despite an improved engine, the addition of 5 tons of armour resulted in the vehicle having insufficient mobility.

So first you take a truck chassis and uparmor it to make an APC looking like an MRAP. Sadly the heavy armor and truck heritage can result in a vehicle which lacks offroad mobility.

The BTR-152 and BTR-40, the first two Soviet mass produced APCs, developed after the Second World War given the Soviet Army useful experience with wheeled armoured personnel carriers. However even as they were designed they weren't suited for the needs of the Soviet Army as they lacked a roof (which was added in later versions designated BTR-152K and BTR-40B respectively). [U]The low combat value of BTR-152 and BTR-40 was exposed during the Suez Crisis when the Egyptian Army used them. This was one of the reasons for which the new APC was developed.[/I][U]

Between 1956 and 1957 a decision was made to convert all rifle and mechanized divisions into new motor rifle divisions and a requirement for a new vehicle was drawn up.

Thus the BRT-60 which "was a revolutionary design for its time" was developed, a 8x8 wheeled APC, fully amphibious and highly mobile, with independent suspension and an armor capable to withstand 7,62mm rounds fired from over 100mm away from each direction. It was introduced in 1960.

(All the links are from Wikipedia)

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As has been written the design of a modern MRAP is to a good degree the result of trying to get a very high protection against blast mines. Thus the vehicles have a lot of ground clearance and are quite heavy for the numbers of people they transport. The rapid introduction addressing a specific need in a specific environment meant that other aspects as offroad mobility were not as seen as important.

[Fuchs]

German experience was that APCs (SdKfz 251 mostly) halved infantry losses. APCs were only employed in motorised/armoured formations which tended to use aggressive (offensive) tactics, of course.

[Firn]

German experience was that APCs (SdKfz 251 mostly) halved infantry losses. APCs were only employed in motorised/armoured formations which tended to use aggressive (offensive) tactics, of course.

I always wondered what an impact a (very) considerable numbers of a family of trucks like the Tatra 111 or Unimog would have made on the German war effort, especially in the East. Of course more of anything, be it AFV like tanks or APCs, artillery and ammunition would have had a potentially massive impact, but a great lot of a unexpensive, robust, and highly mobile/mobile family of easily mass-producable might have completely changed the mobility of the German forces. [Lack of key ressources like metal, rubber and especially fuel, but also the lack of capability/skill/ability to handle mass production (of a reduced range of products) like the US had of course their influence on that].

Said that the prices of the new APC/IFV like the Boxer and Freccia are quite stunning. Even for the ever smaller European forces it is pretty much impossible to switch the relevant brigades over to such vehicles. In this case economies of the state and of scale are hitting really hard.

[davidbfpo]

This appears to be the main thread on MRAP and was originally titled 'MRAP JLTV concept of infantry mobility'. It is now: All matters MRAP JLTV (merged thread).

There were other threads: What is the MRAPs future in the US Army?, (on SWJ Blog) The Impact of Incorporating MRAPs into BCT’s, (ditto) MRAP Future Discussion Paper and Military Claims Victory with V-shaped Truck.

[davidbfpo]

A short article in Foreign Affairs, which ends:

Indeed, even if the United States drove all its MRAPs lemming-like into the Euphrates upon departing Iraq, the vehicles still would have been a bargain, not a boondoggle.

Link:http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...oney?page=show