All matters MRAP JLTV (merged thread)

[William F. Owen]

Wilf, those rules are a good script for reconnaissance operations. I am stealing it for its simplicity and ease of retention.

You don't have to steal them. They are the core functions. They are how you defeat and avoid defeat in any environment against any enemy. First written down by Ferdinand Foch in 1903

Back to the subject though. Wildcat posts comparable numbers, but it cannot traverse the same terrain (berne ,gaps etc.) as a 6 or 8-wheeled vehicle. Having said that, Stryker is more complex from a maintenance perspective, but probably among only certain variants.

Agreed. Wildcat is a cheaper, simpler, 80% solution.

Wildcat will fit a role as a lightweight APC, but other variants will gain weight from the basic model. Looking at its arrangement, however, it doesn't seem to have fighting characteristics. It looks great for self defense, but Stryker compares differently because it has sensors to allow it to "fight for information", which is a big role within certain formations it finds itself in.

Agreed. It's just an APC/MRAP.

And Wildcat looks too damn high for chrissakes. I know it's a function of mine resistance, but what will have to be done to reduce that signature from a short halt?

Agreed. According to the figures it is two centimetres higher than the Stryker

The Marine Corps was looking at the LAV (logistics variant type-ish) as a MPC candidate, but that died for good reasons which would have otherwise negatively impacted the LAR community.

The balance to be struck is difficult to achieve, and no matter how fair the selection criteria are supposed to be, one "best value" consideration can leave us with a platform that does'nt fill the best niches. If we have to write new doctrine to account for MPC's the USMC is screwed.

More screwed than with CV-22 and AAAV?

[Distiller]

Boxer is one crazy monster. With protection "ueber alles".

Your 1000 men force: If you can speed across country like that, you seem to be unopposed. Guess then you could as well hire a local bus company.
Coffee on Red Square in the morning anyone?

Another thought: How many bombs can the bad guys plant along a hard to predict route (different from the easy to predict patrol routines in Iraqi towns)? Seems like there'd be more danger from RPGs. And these neither the MRAP nor the APC can withstand without reactive armor.

The running costs: Guess if you use an APC like a road-bound MRAP, your running costs - which are dominantly automotive then - shouldn't be too different.

Of course, if you have a vehicle designed for a narrow usage profile (road-use only), then it will be overall cheaper and better suited for that single task than a vehicle with a wider usage profile. But ok, let's not turn this into MRAP vs APC.

As a vehicle to move troops from one square to another, I think trucks (with aramid mats) are equally suited; plus they provide more cargo space, and better rough-terrain capability.
You could put a mortar into an MRAP, and NETFIRES, and ATGM and MANPADS launcher, and cut down the rear cabin and put an autocannon instead. But you will still remain road/piste-bound, which limits your mobility.
And: All these above jobs a truck can also do. Which is basically what Caesar, Bereg, Pantsir, &c do.

I just don't see much space for the MRAP between trucks and APCs.

Btw, the Wildcat was designed for the MPC competition. One of the more interesting MRAPs is the Rafael Golan. But it's still a riot-control vehicle.


PS: NOTHING is more screwed than V-22 and EFV!

[wm]

Just read a story on MSNBC.com about the IRAM 107mm rocket propelled bomb/flying explosive-packed propane tank. I wonder how well an MRAP, Stryker, or an M113 for that matter would survive getting hit by one of these overhead strike devices. Of course the probability of a direct hit is probably about the same as a direct hit from almost any projectile following a purely ballistic trajectory--maybe even less due to the no-doubt oddly shaped warhead. But if they are fired as an MRL spread (an apparent TTP) perhaps the odds go up.

Of course the bomblets from DPICM rounds could be pretty destructive to an MRAP convoy(do we still use them?). Alternatively, the US once was working on a funny submunition--the SADARM projectile--specifically designed to attack the thin-skinned top of engine compartments of armored fighting vehicles. That might be a pretty significant countermeasure for MRAPs too.

[Fuchs]

I can think of dozens of improvised and quantity-produced weapons and munitions that could destroy/pierce MRAPs.
DPICM bomblets are still in use (and will remain so in many countries), sensor-fuzed submunitions like Sadarm are in many countries' inventories (USA, France, Germany, Russia have own designs).

MRAPs are really "blast-protected trucks with self-defence weapon".

I would agree that it's a good general APC, if

(for heavy brigades: ) it had an off-road capability closer to that of tanks

(for light brigades: ) I would trust the official assertion that troops need passive artillery protection even though they shall dismount out of sight of the enemy



The wheeled armoured vehicle design has really evolved in the past few years. Previously we saw very few armoured vehicles with large bulletproof windows (some wheeled APC like Fuchs and a Patria type had some windows).
I remember some Land Rover conversions, the Mamba and the South African designs.

Now we see large bulletproof windows as standard; the panoramic mirror was obviously not satisfactory for daily road movements in multiple multi-month deployments. Crash prevention was obviously not prioritized enough in Cold War APCs.

Another advance was the finally universal application of V-shaped hulls, resulting in the necessarily big height. Complicated suspensions and engines like in-wheel electric engines and hydro-pneumatic suspension don't fit well into an underbelly blast protection concept. These technologies lost momentum although they were high on wish lists ten years ago.

One lesson of MRAPs was the importance of size and turning radius in urban environments; maybe that the next designs will attempt to avoid very large designs in order to remain agile in urban environments. All axles steerable as in recce light AFV designs would help, of course.

The usage of MRAPs in other environments than Iraq/AFG would certainly lead to additional design changes and add-ons.

I' sure that the counter-blast armour developments of the past five years will enable much better APC designs in the future. I don't think that any real new APCs in the 12-18 ton range will have less than three axles, though. Almost everyone wants to be able to cross irrigation trenches and drainage channels without the time-consuming use of dedicated equipment.

[William F. Owen]

One of the more interesting MRAPs is the Rafael Golan. But it's still a riot-control vehicle.

Cancelled six months ago, due to "commercial" problems, with the US partner company. Since riots do not include folks with RPGs, I can't quite see how an RPG protected vehicle counts as a riot-control vehicle. ...but AT-105 was directly descended from an "internal security vehicle" and Golan was, like all MRAPs was biased more to Security Operations than Combat Operations.