Language and Cultural Awareness Transformation

[Uboat509]

To begin with, I have never really understood the fascination that some have with language training. Here in the SOF community we have been dealing with that mess for years. It is not all that it is cracked up to be. In order for language training to be truly useful it is very time intensive, more time than most leaders can afford to spend on it. A few words are nice to know for certain situations but that isn't going to cut it for anything complex and may even be counter-productive. Nothing will beat having a good terp and I realize that there are not enough of those to go around but I really don't believe that spending the time and resources to bring squad leaders up to the kind of proficiency that is needed to have any sort of meaningful dialog in the absence of a terp is going to pay off.

As for trying to push language down to K-12, well I will be happy if they can consistently start teaching our children to read and write in English, never mind a foreign language. Besides, as Steve pointed out, you aren't going to get much in the way of variety in these language programs. I went to a private school where we had a relatively robust language program, meaning we had German, French and Latin. My family is in Pueblo Colorado now and the only language that is taught in any of the public schools there, as far as I know, is Spanish. None of that is really going to be all that useful. Latin is useless, German won't help unless the Germans start feeling froggy again , French may have some utility in Africa and I don't think that the military has ever suffered a shortage of Spanish speakers. Language programs tend to be the first thing to get cut out of the budget when it comes time to tighten the budgetary belt. Trying to get schools to ADD language programs, particularly in languages that are very difficult like Arabic or Chinese is probably a bridge to far, and that's assuming that sufficient instructors in those languages could be found.

SFC W

[Stan]

To begin with, I have never really understood the fascination that some have with language training. Here in the SOF community we have been dealing with that mess for years. It is not all that it is cracked up to be. In order for language training to be truly useful it is very time intensive, more time than most leaders can afford to spend on it. A few words are nice to know for certain situations but that isn't going to cut it for anything complex and may even be counter-productive. Nothing will beat having a good terp and I realize that there are not enough of those to go around but I really don't believe that spending the time and resources to bring squad leaders up to the kind of proficiency that is needed to have any sort of meaningful dialog in the absence of a terp is going to pay off.

Understanding one's ability to comprehend languages and cultures is indeed fascinating. You'll never appreciate it til you witness first-hand just how much that ability can save your Alpha (when you most need it). Using terps is a mixed bag, and best left to those who truly understand the culture (there's little pay off if the terp is communicating via his/her culture (no matter how much we're paying) - the one you don't comprehend).

Language and cultural training is certainly time consuming and definitely won't be productive overnight. There's no proficiency lessons in the USA - gotta get on the ground and practice under fire.

Latin is useless, German won't help unless the Germans start feeling froggy again , French may have some utility in Africa and I don't think that the military has ever suffered a shortage of Spanish speakers. Language programs tend to be the first thing to get cut out of the budget when it comes time to tighten the budgetary belt. Trying to get schools to ADD language programs, particularly in languages that are very difficult like Arabic or Chinese is probably a bridge to far, and that's assuming that sufficient instructors in those languages could be found.

Gotta disagree with you here. Latin is the base of most languages to include Estonian. Without a basic understanding of English however, the rest will merely be Greek. The educational system we have is broken and weak, and pushing some foreign language at an early age will not only increase interest, but will increase our next generation's ability to learn and adapt to new cultures.

Check out Inlingua in Arlington. There are far more language institutes and instructors around than meet the eye.

[Fuchs]

Latin is only a very distant ancestors of modern languages, mostly French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish.
To learn any of these languages provides the same basis to have it easier learning others.

French is relevant because the French are not much inclined to learn English but still allies and because a third of Africa understands French.
Spanish is relevant because of Latin America and because it's similar to Portuguese, which is understood in some African countries.

Russian is well understood at the NATO's Eastern frontier and Arabic at NATO's southern frontier.
Americans might want to learn Chinese because of their assistance obligations in the Northwestern Pacific, but the other NATO troops should focus on English, Russian, Arabic, French and Spanish - in that order.

[marct]

Americans might want to learn Chinese because of their assistance obligations in the Northwestern Pacific, but the other NATO troops should focus on English, Russian, Arabic, French and Spanish - in that order.

Hi Fuchs,

On the whole, I would agree with the rank order. Personally, I would like to see Latin as one of the basic languages taught (it's the root of six modern languages: French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Romanian, and Romanche) along with English (especially grammar!). Other basic ones, IMO, should be French, German and Mandarin (NB: there is no such spoken language as "Chinese", only a written one). BTW, by "basic", I mean starting in kindergarten.

Marc

[Steve Blair]

we also should look at the cultural and historical contexts of those languages and the people that speak and/or write them. And that will be a HUGE hurdle in this country given the lack of emphasis (and value) placed on history in this country. Cultural studies tends to float back and forth, and often crawls up without context. It will be a MAJOR change at most education levels...and we (sadly) may never see it.

[Darksaga]

We can do all training in languages that we like however as a matter of practicality we need to look at the areas that most likely will be hot spots and focus on those languages. That is really the best we can do.

We really have focused on conventional warfare for the last 50 years. We need to have a military flexible enough to address the demands of a conventional war and person skills (culture, language, tradition, custom) needed to effectively counter an insurgency.

[Stan]

We can do all training in languages that we like however as a matter of practicality we need to look at the areas that most likely will be hot spots and focus on those languages. That is really the best we can do.

We really have focused on conventional warfare for the last 50 years. We need to have a military flexible enough to address the demands of a conventional war and person skills (culture, language, tradition, custom) needed to effectively counter an insurgency.

First and foremost, Welcome Aboard !

Concur with you, however... concentrating on or determining a potential hot spot and then spooling up language and cultural training is a non-starter. We can and should be better prepared. The folks in Kosovo as an example, are only now at peak proficiency (having began Serbo training in 94 and 95).

I think the FAO program is an excellent example of preparing cross-cultural skills, by training and placing our experts into many diverse cultures without a 100% focus on a regional hot spot. Those individuals often are our eyes and ears, and diplomats at ground zero and having them switch gears and move into another culture is far easier than starting a soldier from dead zilch. You're right, it is also a question of personal skills and some just won't cut the mustard.

[Uboat509]

Understanding one's ability to comprehend languages and cultures is indeed fascinating. You'll never appreciate it til you witness first-hand just how much that ability can save your Alpha (when you most need it). Using terps is a mixed bag, and best left to those who truly understand the culture (there's little pay off if the terp is communicating via his/her culture (no matter how much we're paying) - the one you don't comprehend).

I agree, in principle but...

Language and cultural training is certainly time consuming and definitely won't be productive overnight. There's no proficiency lessons in the USA - gotta get on the ground and practice under fire.

Is it going to be productive enough to spend all the time and resources to get every leader proficient in it (an extremely unlikely scenario given the number of people who lack either the aptitude or the interest to become proficient)? When I went through the Q course, Arabic was a six month course of eight hour days, five days a week. At the end of that time the students were expected to achieve a 0+/0+ to graduate. Most struggled to meet that goal. Some did excel but most were back to a 0+/0+ within a year because we simply do not have the time it takes to maintain proficiency, and that's the guys who have deployed to Iraq. If they have not then it is even harder.

Gotta disagree with you here. Latin is the base of most languages to include Estonian. Without a basic understanding of English however, the rest will merely be Greek. The educational system we have is broken and weak, and pushing some foreign language at an early age will not only increase interest, but will increase our next generation's ability to learn and adapt to new cultures.

This is the exact argument that my parents used when they made me take two years of Latin high school. I can honestly say that it was two years of my life that I will never have back.

SFC W

[Stan]

Is it going to be productive enough to spend all the time and resources to get every leader proficient in it (an extremely unlikely scenario given the number of people who lack either the aptitude or the interest to become proficient)? When I went through the Q course, Arabic was a six month course of eight hour days, five days a week. At the end of that time the students were expected to achieve a 0+/0+ to graduate. Most struggled to meet that goal. Some did excel but most were back to a 0+/0+ within a year because we simply do not have the time it takes to maintain proficiency, and that's the guys who have deployed to Iraq. If they have not then it is even harder.

To be fair, successful language training begins long after graduation and requires a significant amount of cultural experience if one is to master the Colloquial versions (at least with me). I don't mean the ability to manage 2,000 words and some dirty phrases.

The folks studying Serbo-Croatian in Arlington were pressed into service within 15 weeks, and I was pushed to learn Estonian in less than 13 weeks (both are 45 to 50 weeks at FSI and DLI). I've worked with so many Officers (FAOs) and SF NCOs that managed not only colloquial fluency, but managed to maintain 2 or even 3 secondary languages. I think if we start now, we'll be better off down the road.

This is the exact argument that my parents used when they made me take two years of Latin high school. I can honestly say that it was two years of my life that I will never have back.

SFC W

I guess it's different for everyone. Between listening to Swiss German as a child to studying German in HS, I conclude it has really helped me with my other languages (some of which I literally learned in the bush).

Regards, Stan

[Uboat509]

I've worked with so many Officers (FAOs) and SF NCOs that managed not only colloquial fluency, but managed to maintain 2 or even 3 secondary languages.

I have been in SF for a while now and with a few rare exceptions, the only guys I have known who had anything approaching fluency in anything other than English either A) had English as a second language or B) were married to someone who had English as a second language. As I stated there were a few exceptions but they are few and far between. I understand the desire for for more fluent speakers, I just haven't heard any workable plans to get significantly more people fluent.

I guess it's different for everyone. Between listening to Swiss German as a child to studying German in HS, I conclude it has really helped me with my other languages (some of which I literally learned in the bush).

Regards, Stan

I'm not sure what that has to do with Latin, which is what the original post that this was in response to was about.



SFC W

[Stan]

I have been in SF for a while now and with a few rare exceptions, the only guys I have known who had anything approaching fluency in anything other than English either A) had English as a second language or B) were married to someone who had English as a second language. As I stated there were a few exceptions but they are few and far between. I understand the desire for for more fluent speakers, I just haven't heard any workable plans to get significantly more people fluent.

Different regions, occupations and crowd I guess? Although I agree with version B, during my DAS days both here and in Africa, I knew many folks from the SF and Ranger crowd that spoke foreign languages and don't fit into either A or B. Other than the Army's FAO program and the DAS, I also have not seen any real attempts to get folks proficient.

I'm not sure what that has to do with Latin, which is what the original post that this was in response to was about.
SFC W

As opined below and echoed by others, my point was it has more to do with studying any foreign language at an early age, which provides a base for learning others. I don't think that's a generalization -- there's sufficient evidence to prove it among foreign language speakers from any culture.

... To learn any of these languages provides the same basis to have it easier learning others.

Regards, Stan

[sullygoarmy]

I'm pretty lucky in my wife is German. I know when I'm in trouble when I start getting yelled at in German!

I've tried doing the Rosetta Stone program which the Army touts as the be all end all answer to our need for langague adept soldiers. It wasn't a bad tool but in no way could compete with working with the locals. On my first advisor gig in 2004 (pre-Rosetta Stone), I worked not only with my interpreter to pick up a few additional Iraqi phrases a day but with the soldiers I interacted with daily. The soldiers did not need to know a word of english and I obviously didn't understand much Iraqi. However, by some simple friendly gestures, hand signs and repetition, I picked up numerous words and phrases from just trying to talk with the soldiers. I found they wanted to try and learn English just as much as I wanted to try and learn Arabic.

Having the background and experience (7 years of German in school and 7 years living in Germany) in another language definately helped me pick up more of the Arabic quicker than some of my peers who had no other langauge ability. However, being able to understand parts of a language (which I think is the most we can expect out of our soldiers and leaders) clearly does not equate to cultural awareness. Many people get the two confused...often with ugly results.

Thanks for all the testimony. I thought Tom's comments on what the presenter's language abilities actually are was very interesting to ponder.

[nichols]

I have been in SF for a while now and with a few rare exceptions, the only guys I have known who had anything approaching fluency in anything other than English either A) had English as a second language or B) were married to someone who had English as a second language.

Have you checked with your CLPM? SOFLO produced some pretty good 'language facts' during the SOCOM Language Conference last month at Ft Walton Beach.

@ Tom, from my limited perspective, I've seen that the culture skills normally outweigh the language skills. I'd be more interested in seeing how much time those people have overseas away from the flagpole.

Interesting observation from my wife the other day. We were at our kids school talking about Tomas' lower vocabulary skills then the others in the class. I told the teacher that I pretty much expected this becuase he is bi-lingual......I then explained that Czech is the primary spoken language in the house. She asked if I spoke Czech to which I honestly said 'no, I've never been able to learn it,' My wife jumped in an said that I did speak Czech........I still don't think that I can speak it yet a native claims that I can

[Tom Odom]

@ Tom, from my limited perspective, I've seen that the culture skills normally outweigh the language skills. I'd be more interested in seeing how much time those people have overseas away from the flagpole.

Excellent point and I figure we both can guess a good answer!

I agree somewhat on the cultural skills having greater weight as I have met a number of folks who could speak a language but could not get along within the culture. I was lucky to have Stan with his language skills and adaptability. To paraphrase a rebuff I once heard on a sitcom, "I can lose weight, you will always be an A$$" one can learn a language but an A$$ will always be just so

Stan--usually--kept me out of trouble when my A$$hole side began to emerge

Tom

[Beelzebubalicious]

Good point, Tom. We all live within cultures and don't need to travel to become aware or develop greater understanding of them. Awareness training should start at home. General awareness, respect for others and curiousity goes a long way. the particulars can be learned. It's just tragic when you have people that spend a lot of time overseas, but don't learn a damn thing. I've met a few guys who have spend time overseas in a base but didn't know squat about the culture they were living in. And that gets me to an idea. How about language training and awareness for the children of military overseas? My son spoke and understood more Russian after 2 years in Ukraine than I did and he's 3.