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Thread: Generation Kill

  1. #21
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    I fully concur with Mike and Wayne; I see no issues/instances of lack of professionalism. In my 23 years (other than my E-1 thru E-4 days), most of my SNCOs and nearly every officer addressed me by my first name. Typically, the senior officers were far easier and the E-9s... Well, what Wayne said
    That's right. When Stan called me "Colonel" I knew I had screwed up

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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    I thought they were recon? Being used in an inappropriate role.
    The whole first name thing has gotten blown a little out of proportion, I think. I've got that I am apparently the only member of this board who, while enlisted, was not addressed by his first name by superior officers. The point is that it was the only thing that seemed out of place to me. In my experience, I don't see many Marines being addressed by their first name in that particular context - even within reconnaissance and ANGLICO.

    To answer selil's question; yes, they were the division reconnaissance battalion, vice the MEF force reconnaissance company. I disagree that they were used inappropriately - they were used nontraditionally, but they performed an economy of force mission that, with some additional training, the battalion was well suited to.

    Some good reading on that subject would be "Ground Reconnaissance in OIF: A Perspective from Within 1st MarDiv", by LtCol Stephen A. Ferrando and Maj Todd S. Eckloff; and "A Reconnaissance Platoon's Perspective" by 1stLt Nathanial C. Fick; both from Marine Corps Gazette, Jul 2003. The first article covers how Operation DESERT STORM showed the limited utility of traditional R&S teams in a mobile environment, and resulting change in mission for 1st Reconnaissance Battalion.

    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    The watch cap debacle I thought was hillarious.
    The best part of that was the battalion commander's reaction to the Marines wearing their watch caps in the chow hall - "Cocky MFers."

  3. #23
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Good post, true all that...

    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    ...To answer selil's question; yes, they were the division reconnaissance battalion, vice the MEF force reconnaissance company. I disagree that they were used inappropriately - they were used nontraditionally, but they performed an economy of force mission that, with some additional training, the battalion was well suited to.
    Tailor made for, in fact...
    The best part of that was the battalion commander's reaction to the Marines wearing their watch caps in the chow hall - "Cocky MFers."
    Deja vu all over again. Some 1st Recon Co folks in Korea wore watch caps when going out on patrol; one squad even got hold of some brass Dress Barracks Cap Emblems and fixed them front and center, sort of harming the stealth aspects of black face paint and dark uniforms -- until they were told to lose the emblems because they were setting a bad example for the Grunts while heading across the MLR. Excessive cockiness was cited...

  4. #24
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Default Part 2: Mesopotamia

    Ok I watched part 2 last evening and in keeping with the pro and con format I used before, here are my comments:

    Pro:

    a. Good Marines/Soldiers do well regardless of obstacles human or otherwise. Good leaders reduce obstacles.

    b. Humor comes in all forms and Marines/Soldiers provide some of the better stand up routines....'quiet down, I can't hear the artillery.."; "These Hajjis are hotties..."; and "Hello! Vote Republican..."

    c. Good portrayal of reactions to combat from the sniper to the young troop who kept wanting to shoot his weapon.

    Con:

    a. Captain America seems to have a number of companions. Bad leadership breeds such companions.


    Mixed:

    "In my darkest moments, I fear doing something General Mattis does not like..."


    Tom

  5. #25
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    I'm afraid I thought last nights episode was hilarious. The roll over a tank is going by routine was a memory straight out of a dark night long ago. I can still hear the snickering all these years gone by as guys rolled over.

    The abject fear and courage in the face of violence is neither glamorous or sexy. It is though a reflection of reality. A pale often tainted reflection. The what is likely relative few times I've stood toe-to-toe with the devil I did not dance with glee, crack wise ass jokes, or beat my chest. All I can say is I survived. I see some of that in the made for television veneer.
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    Council Member Wildcat's Avatar
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    I was on vacation in Yellowstone last week, so for the past 36 hours I've been playing catchup with "Generation Kill." I've had the DVR set to record the whole series and I've been thoroughly impressed with the first two episodes. The realism, the banter. Like VMI_Marine, I was struck by Lt. Fick addressing Sgt. Colbert as Brad. The way I've been taught, that just doesn't typically happen in the Marine Corps, particularly in the field. It's a culture thing for Marines, I think.

    I'll share more thoughts later. In a rush right now.

  7. #27
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Default Reflections on OIF One

    Generation Kill is spot on. As a member of the western flank (3rd ID), this story encapsulates my memories. As I watch, I remember what occured- specifically, the karoake of the popular songs of that period.

    One disturbing note,

    In episode two, on the onset of the strike into Nassiriyah, the Marines remarked that they thought that the Army had already cleared the town.

    That was never the mission. We left Nassiryah three days before they arrived, and our mission was west of the town-

    Specifically, bypass Nassiriyah, seize Talil Airfield, destroy the 11th ID, and seize the bridge. We accomplished our mission. Subsequently, the Fedayeen secured the town. I always wondered why the marines suffered so many casualites on the onset of the war, and now I guess I know why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    Generation Kill is spot on. As a member of the western flank (3rd ID), this story encapsulates my memories. As I watch, I remember what occured- specifically, the karoake of the popular songs of that period.

    One disturbing note,

    In episode two, on the onset of the strike into Nassiriyah, the Marines remarked that they thought that the Army had already cleared the town.

    That was never the mission. We left Nassiryah three days before they arrived, and our mission was west of the town-

    Specifically, bypass Nassiriyah, seize Talil Airfield, destroy the 11th ID, and seize the bridge. We accomplished our mission. Subsequently, the Fedayeen secured the town. I always wondered why the marines suffered so many casualites on the onset of the war, and now I guess I know why.
    Mike, I was with TF Tarawa, and I remember being told that 3rd ID was supposed to secure it before we got there. How that got passed around, I don't know. It had nothing to do with the casualties suffered in the city, however. 1/2 was the lead battalion in the TF, and they encountered the survivors of the 507th Maintenance Convoy, so they were aware that Nasiriyah was going to be a fight. Most of their casualties came as a result of bad communications during the push through Ambush Alley - one company pushed all the way north through the city and inadvertently drove into the Iraqis' engagement area on the north side of the city.

    Marines in the Garden of Eden by Richard S. Lowry is the best book I've come across so far on the battle. Cobra II fills in a few blanks as well. Both were very useful for someone who never saw more than 100-200m in front of my platoon's lines.

  9. #29
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Default Fog of War

    Thanks for the update VMI_Marine.

    Initially, after bypassing the main town and seizing W Nassiriyah (11th ID HQ, Talil airfield, and the bridge), we were told that Marines would relieve us in place. On the 20 or 21st, we were told to push west to As Samawa without a relief. I always wondered what happened to the Marines when they eventually pushed through.

    Like you, I was a simple platoon leader looking 100-200m out.

    Obviously, our units had some breakdown over secure and bypass. Unfortunately, this miscommunication cost us Marines.

    v/r

    Mike

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    As I sat and watched this on BLUFOR tracker, back in the V Corps Rear TOC, it became obvious that the Marines and 3ID had two completely different understandings of their mission. Other than the "Operational Pause", 3ID appeared to be moving faster than V Corps expected, and TF TARAWA was moving slower than V Corps expected.

    From reading the rough draft of the V Corps history, I'm not aware if anyone is actually studying why this was.

    Is someone writing/has written something on this out there? I admit that I've not kept up on the details since 2004.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    Marines in the Garden of Eden by Richard S. Lowry is the best book I've come across so far on the battle. Cobra II fills in a few blanks as well. Both were very useful for someone who never saw more than 100-200m in front of my platoon's lines.
    I've been meaning to pick both of those up. Hey VMI_Marine, when you come home this weekend would you mind bringing those with you? I'll trade them for your "24" DVDs that I still have.

    I read Generation Kill a few years back when it first came out and a friend lent it to me. I thought it was interesting, and exposed the reader to parts of the Marine Corps that weren't as visible in books like The March Up and No True Glory. Of course, the purposes of those books were radically different than the purpose of Generation Kill. GK examines the grunt culture, whereas the others look at how the battles were fought and won, geared more towards the intrepidity of the riflemen and the professionalism of their officers and NCOs. GK offers a vision that is a lot more cynical and abrasive, though to a lesser degree than books like, say, Anthony Swofford's Jarhead. Still, I consider it a valuable addition to the pantheon of Long War literature. (Not Jarhead. Different war, different times, and I didn't really like that book very much to begin with. But GK was a solid read.)

    Nate Fick's book, One Bullet Away, is probably the biggest thing to hit the Marine Corps officer pipeline in years. I say that with a bit of hyperbole, but I've actually heard from officer candidates who said that Fick's book directly motivated them to try to become Marine officers. Practically everybody going through Quantico these days has read that book and raves about it, and they tend to elevate Fick to almost demigod status. I don't fall into the crowd of Fick-worshippers, but I do own a copy of the book and I definitely enjoyed reading it. I would say it had a minor impact on my decision to pursue a commission. He's a talented writer and a free-thinker, and his brand of idealism appeals to liberal arts wonks like myself. Still, I've heard of some accusations that details and events in Wright's and Fick's books were embellished, and that wouldn't entirely surprise me. But all the same, I'm really enjoying watching the miniseries so far.
    Last edited by Wildcat; 07-22-2008 at 03:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    Thanks for the update VMI_Marine.

    Initially, after bypassing the main town and seizing W Nassiriyah (11th ID HQ, Talil airfield, and the bridge), we were told that Marines would relieve us in place. On the 20 or 21st, we were told to push west to As Samawa without a relief. I always wondered what happened to the Marines when they eventually pushed through.
    I reread some excerpts from Marines in the Garden of Eden this morning. TF TARAWA was briefed by COL Allen before the war that his brigade was going to secure the Hwy 1 bridge and etablish a blocking position on Hwy 7 south of An Nasiriyah. Somehow this got translated down to my level that you guys would clear the city ahead of us. According to the book, 3ID never set up the blocking positions on Hwy 7, but told the TF TARAWA staff when they conducted final coordination at Talil on the night of the 22nd.

    120mm, TF TARAWA may have been moving slower because 2 out of the 3 battalions in the TF Ground Combat Element were mounted in trucks, not AAVs. In addition, our entire move from Kuwait to Hwy 7 near Talil was cross-country, which slowed us considerably.

    I watched Episode 2 last night - it was about as close a depiction of An Nasiriyah as I think you're going to get. It was interesting that they showed Hwy 7 through Ambush Alley being a narrow 2-lane road, when in fact it was a 4-lane divided highway. It was nowhere near as tight through Ambush Alley as the show depicted. In addition, there were no destroyed AAVs on the bridge itself, they were all north of the Euphrates bridge. Marines were not clearing houses as RCT-1 pushed through the city - 3/1 was strong-pointing the major intersections in the city to allow the rest of the RCT to pass through.

    Richard Lowry posted some criticism of the episode on OPFOR that, while I agree with on a factual basis, I think misses that the show wanted to portray the "grunt's eye" view of the war. Yes, the show has many factual inconsistencies about Nasiriyah, but I think it accurately portrays what the Marines of 1st Recon Bn believed about the battle at the time depicted in the show.

  13. #33
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    Richard Lowry posted some criticism of the episode on OPFOR that, while I agree with on a factual basis, I think misses that the show wanted to portray the "grunt's eye" view of the war. Yes, the show has many factual inconsistencies about Nasiriyah, but I think it accurately portrays what the Marines of 1st Recon Bn believed about the battle at the time depicted in the show.

    Generation Kill is a dramatization it is NOT a documentary. It is a story written from the perspective of the participants and the writer was in the truck. The writer is involved and creating an account that is first person and from his perspective. The levels of bias rise as the directors and creators of the show each add to the dramatization.

    Taking the sanitized knowledge of today (also based on accounts) and glaring through that lens at the tumultuous story of the writer does no good for anybody. It is the act of a concrete thinker and inflexibility to look at a show and apply a factual lens to what is attempting to give an emotional view. I really doubt that the driver gave such a philosophical meandering debate without using the "F" word as punctation for hours on end.

    I will read the histories when they are written through a lens of factual obligation and enjoy the show for the personal first person account the writer and creators have attempted to give. I will listen with interest as people who were there tell me that things happened differently. But, like with the movie Black Hawk Down I'm not looking for abysmal detail in the facts of the account. I am looking for the emotional and personal stories from their perspective.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    Richard Lowry posted some criticism of the episode on OPFOR that, while I agree with on a factual basis, I think misses that the show wanted to portray the "grunt's eye" view of the war. Yes, the show has many factual inconsistencies about Nasiriyah, but I think it accurately portrays what the Marines of 1st Recon Bn believed about the battle at the time depicted in the show.
    Precisely. One needs to remember that "Generation Kill" is not a documentary. It's not fiction, either, but it is a boots-on-the-ground, pointy end of the spear perspective on real events through the eyes of men, including their officers, who didn't have the luxury of seeing the broader operational picture. I think the "artistic license" that some people might accuse the series of having is little more than the filmmakers' subtle portrayal of that phenomenon known most commonly as the fog of war. Apparently some historians might not pick up on this immediately, but veterans of Nasiriyah like VMI_Marine and MikeF do.

    Other things like the streets being too narrow are probably the unintended consequences of the filming locations. With the level of realism that the show has displayed so far, I don't think that's something the filmmakers would knowingly distort unless they simply couldn't find another place with streets similar to those in Nasiriyah.

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    I just saw episode 2. I was wondering who would man up to the tank thing. Congrats to Selil for having the cajones. (I'm going to assume that you've all done it.)

    I was a little surprised that there weren't more IEDS in the early days. I'm going to assume that Saddam was too paranoid to release the ordinanace when he was driving around the streets. (If you're ever wargaming Iran, it'd probably be a good idea to assume they aren't so paranoid.)

    The filmmakers probably made a good choice. Making the guys take a "false" route, just so they could see some of the stuff that was going on would've been worse. So would have been leaving stuff like the destroyed AAV out, because that would've painted a false picture too. (Though even I could figure out that the Iraqis probably couldn't have effectively engaged the AAV at that range.)

    I don't know a lot of 4 lane highways that go straight towards a tall building. (I'm referring to the building that collapsed in the episode.) Was the geography of that building accurate, or was it the best that the directors could find? Just curious.

    Question. I know it was an economy of force mission, but if we'd had double the troops, and giving everything we know now about COIN and population control, would anyone recommend cleaning out towns more thoroughly, instead of bypassing or pushing through them?
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  16. #36
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Default Third Episode

    I watched the 3rd episode last evening.

    Pros:

    a. The 2nd platoon leadership (the LT and Gunny) and then the Squad leader shine. The LT questioning the company commander's insistence in calling for a 200 meter fire mission took back bone. Realizing that the Company CO was using the wrong grid zone designator for the mission: priceless.

    b. Again leadership but leadership in pushing the issue of doing something for the Iraqi boy shot during the airfield seizure.

    Cons:

    a. Use of the thrid person to refer to yourself. I got a real problem with the habit of using third person to speak of yourself.

    B. Bravo Co Commander

    C. Captain America

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
    I watched the 3rd episode last evening.

    Pros:

    a. The 2nd platoon leadership (the LT and Gunny) and then the Squad leader shine. The LT questioning the company commander's insistence in calling for a 200 meter fire mission took back bone. Realizing that the Company CO was using the wrong grid zone designator for the mission: priceless.

    b. Again leadership but leadership in pushing the issue of doing something for the Iraqi boy shot during the airfield seizure.

    Cons:

    a. Use of the thrid person to refer to yourself. I got a real problem with the habit of using third person to speak of yourself.

    B. Bravo Co Commander

    C. Captain America

    Tom

    I read the book on a plane ride last week. I was actually pretty impressed with the writing. The series is probably the most accurate representation of the "environment" of Iraq I have seen yet.

    The two episodes I caught in the Hotel I was staying in (free HBO!) seemed accurate enough given the constraints of where they had to film - buildings were too nice and too high but that is entirely execusable.
    I read the OPFOR criticism - Fick and Wright both claim a short arty round, the blogger denies - I tend to trust the guys who were there. I know from experience (Ken Ballard case) units tend not to highlight when friendly fire kills their own.

    RE: civilian casualties - I take issue with those that claim that that would never happen - I've seen it, so has most everyone who have served in OIF (and other wars). They happen, it's tragic, but part of the friction of combat through urban areas in that context. I've seen more than a few civilians injured/killed by "collateral damage". Unless it was done maliciously, it's an inevitable and unfortunate byproduct of combat on all but the most rural battlefields.

    For an "elite" unit, I was struck throughout the book at the poor quality of officership and also senior NCO leadership. Part I am willing to write off to the author's bias and lack of perspective. Maybe it was only that company. But the fact that "Encino Man" was allowed to command a company shocked me. In the book later one of his NCO's tells him he's a nice guy but just not competent enough to command a company. Encino Man doesn't dispute his assertion, according to Wright.

    Captain America shocks me more, and you will see what Wright claims he did later on. (spoiler) He does get relieved briefly near the end. In the end of the book he apparently moves onward with good reports, as did Encino man.

    Having been there, I am very hesitant to judge leadership based on a few accounts who haven't had to deal with the challenges of leading in combat. However, I wondered why the "Godfather" didn't take stronger action when the stakes were so high. Or if he knew at all what was going on.

    Will be a good question for me to ask the Marines at Quantico tomorrow at the get together!
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  18. #38
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Cav,

    Agree with your comments and your concerns. For my part, my pros and cons are strictly based on what the film shows. Again I have not read the book and lack even that yardstick. Like you, I have been surprised at the leadership issues. Frankly it reminds me more of my Army of 1976-1979 or so rather than a Marine Recon battalion. Again it is a series and as such I look at it more of a series of leader laboratory events than a depiction of "fact," which in any case relies heavily on who is doing the depicting.

    best

    Tom

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    Default And how is this IO?

    While I'm willing to concede that a show that inaccurately portrays soldiers may have some negative Public Affairs implications, what the heck does this discussion have to do with IO as a warfighting discipline?
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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockbridge View Post
    While I'm willing to concede that a show that inaccurately portrays soldiers may have some negative Public Affairs implications, what the heck does this discussion have to do with IO as a warfighting discipline?
    Well Rockbridge I don't recall saying that it did. Maybe if you are going to ask a rhetorical question with a snap of sarcasm you should offer some wisdom to go with it.

    As for inaccuracies, that may be the case. Do you know that it is innacurate?

    I put this thread under media because it is a story as related by an embedded reporter. It is frank in its portrayal of the oiperation. And it is being watched by a significantly large audience.

    Tom
    Last edited by Tom Odom; 07-29-2008 at 12:44 PM.

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