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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Default Generation Kill

    I watched the first episode Sunday evening. I have not read the book. So far I have some positive reactions about the series curtailed by some serious negatives.

    Positives:

    The eternal resourceful American Marine or Soldier. The guys are out scrounging or simply buying what they need when the system is not working. Such has long been the story and is not likely to change.


    Negatives:

    Overt racism among the ranks. Maybe I am too old a Soldier but the overt racism--as tolerated and participated in by NCOs--was over the top.

    Officer leadership--shades of Band of Brothers--the company commander is a pretty boy idiot. the Lieutenant stands "tall" and lies to the battalion commander.

    More to follow. Got a meeting.

    Tom

    Thoughts, reactions?

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Thanks for the heads up! Watching the Generation Kill trailers on You-tube! Laughing my ass off. The dialogue is genius. Pity no one has ever this accurately portrayed British Soldiers on screen.

    Tom Odom wrote:
    Overt racism among the ranks. Maybe I am too old a Soldier but the overt racism--as tolerated and participated in by NCOs--was over the top
    ...and in the early 1980's most UK infantry units were overtly and extremely racist from the top down. I guess most armies are. One the human challenges we don't talk enough about.
    Last edited by William F. Owen; 07-15-2008 at 02:29 PM. Reason: can't quote
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    Council Member MattC86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
    I watched the first episode Sunday evening. I have not read the book. So far I have some positive reactions about the series curtailed by some serious negatives.

    Positives:

    The eternal resourceful American Marine or Soldier. The guys are out scrounging or simply buying what they need when the system is not working. Such has long been the story and is not likely to change.


    Negatives:

    Overt racism among the ranks. Maybe I am too old a Soldier but the overt racism--as tolerated and participated in by NCOs--was over the top.

    Officer leadership--shades of Band of Brothers--the company commander is a pretty boy idiot. the Lieutenant stands "tall" and lies to the battalion commander.

    More to follow. Got a meeting.

    Tom

    Thoughts, reactions?
    Tom,

    I've got the exact opposite perspective; I read the book, but don't have HBO, so I'm reduced to inviting myself over to others' houses to see the miniseries. So far no takers. . .

    Anyway, I think your negatives can only be addressed by reading the book. Even in 7 hours, I don't think the series will be able to address the sources of it.

    In the book, I too found the view of Recon's leadership a little startling - Wright was riding with four enlisted guys and had far less contact with any officers; from platoon leader to company commander to a few of the battalion officers. Fick's book is instructive in this regard, because he too believed his company commander (derided in the book as "Captain America") was incompetent, as did apparently many of the men in the battalion. But Fick had more sympathy for First Recon's commander, Ferrando, than Wright's book (and certainly more than the enlisted guys had).

    As far as the racism, the book featured a Latino Marine who believed he was fighting for the evil white government, and yet good-naturedly traded "spic" and "nigger" epithets with other troops in the platoon. I have no experience with troops, obviously, but just in my generation as a whole, I've found so many guys perfectly comfortable trading those epithets in mixed-race social groups. Whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know, but I think it's a cultural shift.

    Still looking for someone who has DVRed this. . .

    Regards,

    Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
    Tom,

    I've got the exact opposite perspective; I read the book, but don't have HBO, so I'm reduced to inviting myself over to others' houses to see the miniseries. So far no takers. . .

    Anyway, I think your negatives can only be addressed by reading the book. Even in 7 hours, I don't think the series will be able to address the sources of it.

    In the book, I too found the view of Recon's leadership a little startling - Wright was riding with four enlisted guys and had far less contact with any officers; from platoon leader to company commander to a few of the battalion officers. Fick's book is instructive in this regard, because he too believed his company commander (derided in the book as "Captain America") was incompetent, as did apparently many of the men in the battalion. But Fick had more sympathy for First Recon's commander, Ferrando, than Wright's book (and certainly more than the enlisted guys had).
    For what it's worth, I found Fick's book much better than Wright's, I didn't even finish the latter because I thought the writing was so bad, only other book I can ever remember doing that with was DaVinci Code. I'd say if you want to read one after watching the series go with Fick's.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
    As far as the racism, the book featured a Latino Marine who believed he was fighting for the evil white government, and yet good-naturedly traded "spic" and "nigger" epithets with other troops in the platoon. I have no experience with troops, obviously, but just in my generation as a whole, I've found so many guys perfectly comfortable trading those epithets in mixed-race social groups. Whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know, but I think it's a cultural shift.
    Second that, with my friends the N-word is usually out of bounds (more in the U.S. than Britain), but everything short of that is fair game, and very rarely results in offense. I tend to think that's a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
    Still looking for someone who has DVRed this. . .

    Regards,

    Matt
    Matt go to www.surfthechannel.com, they've got the first episode up. I'm currently torn on whether to start watching it online now or wait til I get home in two months and see them all then.

    My pacifist lefty German mother started watching the series though, I'd have to think if you can get someone like that to watch a relatively sympathetic portrayal of the military, it makes up for some of the negligence of the media in covering the wars now (way more Britney on the news than Afghanistan, etc.).

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    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite_State
    For what it's worth, I found Fick's book much better than Wright's, I didn't even finish the latter because I thought the writing was so bad, only other book I can ever remember doing that with was DaVinci Code. I'd say if you want to read one after watching the series go with Fick's.
    I agree that One Bullet Away is the better book, they do however compliment each other well. Generation Kill covering the nitty-gritty grunts eye perspective, and One Bullet Away on a another level.
    Heh, I've heard Salman Rushdie in a speech once say something along the lines of: "You know normally I am against assassinating writers because of their novels, but after reading the DaVinci Code...."

    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine
    During the initial training range sequence, the radio traffic between the FAC and aircraft was pretty damn realistic. The terminology all seems to be spot on as well.
    My understanding is that they tried to incorporate as much of the battalions recorded radio traffic as possible into the series. Also several members of the platoon served as technical advisers in the making of it, and did their best to make sure the terminology was nailed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattC86
    As far as the racism, the book featured a Latino Marine who believed he was fighting for the evil white government, and yet good-naturedly traded "spic" and "nigger" epithets with other troops in the platoon.
    This is the guy who was a repo man in south central LA right? And he kept getting shot at in his job repossessing cars that he figured he might as well join the Corps. Isn't he also part Native American? I know one of the guys is, they have one of the more memorable quotes in the book about the shame of watching Pocahontas with his daughter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granite_State
    My pacifist lefty German mother started watching the series though, I'd have to think if you can get someone like that to watch a relatively sympathetic portrayal of the military, it makes up for some of the negligence of the media in covering the wars now (way more Britney on the news than Afghanistan, etc.).
    I was in the book store yesterday, the book has been re-released with a new afterward, I read it. Wright says that when the book first came out, there was a quote in it from a Marine, that said combat was like playing Grand Theft Auto. This particular quote was cited often as an example of how today's youth cannot distinguish between reality and video games.
    In the time since the book was published, Wright realized that this was more indicative of the nationsinability to distinguish between the realities of war, and the fantasies of media and video games. Rather than this particular Marines inability to do so. I thought this was particularly sharp.

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    Council Member Noble Industries's Avatar
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    I was in the book store yesterday, the book has been re-released with a new afterward, I read it. Wright says that when the book first came out, there was a quote in it from a Marine, that said combat was like playing Grand Theft Auto. This particular quote was cited often as an example of how today's youth cannot distinguish between reality and video games.
    In the time since the book was published, Wright realized that this was more indicative of the nationsinability to distinguish between the realities of war, and the fantasies of media and video games. Rather than this particular Marines inability to do so. I thought this was particularly sharp.[/QUOTE]


    As someone who is just trailing out of being classed as youth this is something I can identify with. Will not military myself I remain close to some who serve in Australia’s defence force. The comparison between video games an actual combat seems to be valid. Perhaps it is the desensitisation of the current crop of young adults populating the armed services or something larger. Once you have become accustomed to eyeballing a target through a scope and putting rounds into him, then to transfer that experience to combat may not be to far fetched. Video games as training methods are becoming more main stream.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
    Negatives:

    Overt racism among the ranks. Maybe I am too old a Soldier but the overt racism--as tolerated and participated in by NCOs--was over the top.

    Officer leadership--shades of Band of Brothers--the company commander is a pretty boy idiot. the Lieutenant stands "tall" and lies to the battalion commander.

    Sir, I enjoyed the first episode for its relatively faithful portrayal of a platoon of infantry Marines. The overt rascist jibes happen about like they're portrayed, although I think they tend to defuse any racial tension, unlike what was shown in the episode.

    During the initial training range sequence, the radio traffic between the FAC and aircraft was pretty damn realistic. The terminology all seems to be spot on as well.

    The company commander, "Encino Man", is portrayed as an idiot because that seems to have been the general perception. (I think I ran into "Capt America" in Nasiriyah when 1st Recon passed through our battalion's lines. I remember walking the guy around my lines and thinking to myself, "This guy's a moron.") The actor playing LtCol Ferrando certainly talked like an infantry battalion commander.

    One thing that bugged me is the Lt Fick character repeatedly calling his TL, Sgt Colbert, by his first name.

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default None of my business, but I'm idly curious...

    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    ...One thing that bugged me is the Lt Fick character repeatedly calling his TL, Sgt Colbert, by his first name.
    Why is that?

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    Default vmi_marine is right...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Why is that?
    Because it just doesn't happen, or it's not supposed to. PLs don't refer to their NCOs by first name. I think it's pretty unheard of...and unprofessional. Just my 2 cents. Maybe in SF units or Force Recon, it's acceptable, I wouldn't know, but for a line Infantry company, no.
    Sir, what the hell are we doing?

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    Default my two cents

    In 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999% of Marine infantry units you would never see this. The only time this might be different is if an officer was talking to a wounded Marine or to a family member about their husband or son, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    In 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999% of Marine infantry units you would never see this. The only time this might be different is if an officer was talking to a wounded Marine or to a family member about their husband or son, etc.
    It really is funny how cultural all of this is. I can remember being absolutely stunned and horrified attending a re-enlistment ceremony in Iraq for a female USMC CPL COMCAM operator who worked for us. She was a switched soldier who had just come out of a job in Anbar where she had to drop her camera, shoulder her rifle and slot a couple of bad guys ... she was so gee'd up about it she asked to re-up on the spot. Anyway there was a USMC 1-star and a female O6 who ran the ceremony with all of us looking on. Both principals spoke about the CPL's career at length (about 20 mins in total I guess) during the ceremony ... quite a moving thing in a combat area as it is not something I had experienced before (we don't have re-enlistment ceremonies ...we just sign up for a minimum period and then get out when we've had enough) but apart from the final pronouncement of the Corps owning her for the next few years, neither speaker ever referred to her as a person. The speeches were littered with "this marine" or "this CPL" (about 15 'marines' to the 'CPL') and all I could think of was how bloody impersonal it all was. I mean here was this young kid who just offered to keep putting her life on the line (in an adrenaline-fuelled haze that I hope she doesn't regret now) and they couldn't even be bothered to call her 'Michelle' (not her real name) or even 'CPL XXXX.' What made it really weird for me was when I commented on it to one of the guys I was working closely with, a USMC CAPT, and he looked at me like I was stupid ... apparently it was the highest honour to be completely de-personified and to become one with 'Marine' ... it was like I was dealing with the F#@&ing Borg!

    I used to always get in the #### from the couple of E6s, 7s and the 8 who worked with us as well. As the sole Aussie I made a point getting to know everyone in the small team pretty closely and I'd always call these lads by their first name. Here, like others have indicated, rank and last name is reserved for discipline or in the presence of seniors outside your normal C2 structure. Top used to drag me aside and tell me how I was disrespecting the rank the lads had earned by not using it. I pleaded “diplomatic immunity” and told them straight up that it wasn’t the way we played it in our Army and that I felt knowing them as people was just as important as knowing they could do the job their rank entailed ... in the end it worked out but I know one of them was never really happy ... I was just that "crazy Aussie officer who didn't know #### about the big army." I might also of got that name by being the crazy white guy who didn’t know better and stayed around playing dominos with them all after work.

    Here, with seniors in my own C2 chain (apart from my 2-star) pretty much all of them are 'Boss' if no-one else is around. Might be a hang over from my days as a soldier and Section Comd where if I had a good Pl Comd he was 'Boss' and if he was a clown he was always 'Sir.' A 'Boss' here is someone you want to work with. A 'Sir' is often someone you have to work with.

    But then again according to most of you I'm upside down

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    I went to the HBO website and watched all the trailers/interviews. Looks authentic to me. Laughed my a** off actually at some of the dark humor that soldiers are famous for.

    Got to get HBO ...
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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    I went to the HBO website and watched all the trailers/interviews. Looks authentic to me. Laughed my a** off actually at some of the dark humor that soldiers are famous for.

    Got to get HBO ...
    I really laughed at, "Quiet down. I can't hear the artillery..."

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    Default Well, you agree with the book...

    Quote Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso View Post
    Because it just doesn't happen, or it's not supposed to. PLs don't refer to their NCOs by first name. I think it's pretty unheard of...and unprofessional. Just my 2 cents. Maybe in SF units or Force Recon, it's acceptable, I wouldn't know, but for a line Infantry company, no.
    Having spent a great deal of time in line units and having been called by rank as well as by first, last and unprintable names by Officers ranging from 2LT to BG I'd be inclined to say it depends on the unit and the people -- as well as the circumstances; level or intensity of combat can make a difference. I do not see it as 'unprofessional' (whatever that means) at all. You have to know your people and I can truthfully say that neither any Officer that called me by my first name nor I ever forgot who I was or who they were.

    I suspect part of it is a self confidence thing. I think it interesting that you posit it may be acceptable in SF or Force Recon but not in line units. Seems to me it either would be okay or it wouldn't. Fire a few inert rounds and give a good line unit the extra training SF or Recon get and you'd get similar performance capability..

    For Maximus I agree that in most Marine units it would be far less likely to happen than it would be in the Army -- for several reasons -- but I can truthfully say that back in my misspent youth as an 1811 in Korea my Platoon commander called me by my first name most of the time. That was the only place in the Corps that happened but it was handy, that way I always knew when I'd fouled up.

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    Council Member jkm_101_fso's Avatar
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    Default there certainly is a double standard...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Having spent a great deal of time in line units and having been called by rank as well as by first, last and unprintable names by Officers ranging from 2LT to BG I'd be inclined to say it depends on the unit and the people -- as well as the circumstances; level or intensity of combat can make a difference. I do not see it as 'unprofessional' (whatever that means) at all. You have to know your people and I can truthfully say that neither any Officer that called me by my first name nor I ever forgot who I was or who they were.
    Since being commissioned, I have always been called by my first name by officers senior to me. At least alone or amongst other officers, anyway; rarely in front of troops. As an enlisted Soldier, I was never called by my first name by anyone, from TL up to CO (although I was called many other things). I suppose it is a double standard, because I have NEVER referred to an NCO or a Soldier by their first name. Not one time, ever; because I was taught that it wasn't professional. Maybe I'm wrong. Additionally, I didn't say that is was correct that SF types call each other by their first name, I just heard from friends in that community that it was common and accepted.
    Last edited by Steve Blair; 07-16-2008 at 08:06 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Having spent a great deal of time in line units and having been called by rank as well as by first, last and unprintable names by Officers ranging from 2LT to BG I'd be inclined to say it depends on the unit and the people -- as well as the circumstances; level or intensity of combat can make a difference. I do not see it as 'unprofessional' (whatever that means) at all. You have to know your people and I can truthfully say that neither any Officer that called me by my first name nor I ever forgot who I was or who they were.

    I suspect part of it is a self confidence thing. I think it interesting that you posit it may be acceptable in SF or Force Recon but not in line units. Seems to me it either would be okay or it wouldn't. Fire a few inert rounds and give a good line unit the extra training SF or Recon get and you'd get similar performance capability..
    Some find it acceptable to call SNCOs or senior sergeants by first name. I'd be ok doing it outside of a "work" environment. My closest friend from my lieutenant time is my old platoon sergeant - I just spent a week at his house in the Netherlands back in May. Certainly a lot of older officers (captain and above) are on first-name basis with their senior enlisted advisors during off-duty hours. Nothing wrong with that either. They don't do it in front of the junior Marines, though.

    I'm not saying it was unrealistic; I'm sure it does happen in Recon, and Nate Fick may have been on a first name basis with Sgt Colbert, but it seemed out of place to me. The fact that I noticed it at all, however, goes to show how accurate the rest of it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso View Post
    Because it just doesn't happen, or it's not supposed to. PLs don't refer to their NCOs by first name. I think it's pretty unheard of...and unprofessional. Just my 2 cents. Maybe in SF units or Force Recon, it's acceptable, I wouldn't know, but for a line Infantry company, no.
    I thought they were recon? Being used in an inappropriate role. The watch cap debacle I thought was hillarious. Kind of like Tanker Boots after I finished armor school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    I thought they were recon? Being used in an inappropriate role.
    The whole first name thing has gotten blown a little out of proportion, I think. I've got that I am apparently the only member of this board who, while enlisted, was not addressed by his first name by superior officers. The point is that it was the only thing that seemed out of place to me. In my experience, I don't see many Marines being addressed by their first name in that particular context - even within reconnaissance and ANGLICO.

    To answer selil's question; yes, they were the division reconnaissance battalion, vice the MEF force reconnaissance company. I disagree that they were used inappropriately - they were used nontraditionally, but they performed an economy of force mission that, with some additional training, the battalion was well suited to.

    Some good reading on that subject would be "Ground Reconnaissance in OIF: A Perspective from Within 1st MarDiv", by LtCol Stephen A. Ferrando and Maj Todd S. Eckloff; and "A Reconnaissance Platoon's Perspective" by 1stLt Nathanial C. Fick; both from Marine Corps Gazette, Jul 2003. The first article covers how Operation DESERT STORM showed the limited utility of traditional R&S teams in a mobile environment, and resulting change in mission for 1st Reconnaissance Battalion.

    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    The watch cap debacle I thought was hillarious.
    The best part of that was the battalion commander's reaction to the Marines wearing their watch caps in the chow hall - "Cocky MFers."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso View Post
    Because it just doesn't happen, or it's not supposed to. PLs don't refer to their NCOs by first name. I think it's pretty unheard of...and unprofessional. Just my 2 cents. Maybe in SF units or Force Recon, it's acceptable, I wouldn't know, but for a line Infantry company, no.
    My experiance was that soldiers that had been friends before the war tended to default to first name use while in the field even though they rarely did so during training. Of course I deployed w/ NG unit so my experiance may have little to do w/ active duty soldiers.
    Reed

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    Default Godfather

    I was unable to decide if I liked godfather or not. Obviously he was hamming for promotion (in the T.V. Series) but he showed at least some signs of compentancy. I am not suprised by the poor leadership shown in the movie. Poor leaders has been one of my fairly constant experiances in the military, and the fairly heavy dogma of the Corp. seems like it would breed it as well. Most of my bad leader experiances could be related officers that did not know what they were doing, but were afraid to admit it. War did a fairly good job of clearing SOME of the deadwood from my battalion however. Maybe leadership Army (and Marine) wide has improved.
    Reed

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